Memorizing Pirkei Avot was a transformative experience. Everything I knew about Judaism was turned on its head. Before that, I’d practiced a sort of t’fillin-police Judaism. But after I read Pirkei, I realized that Judaism was about more than just keeping the law. It was about being a kind person. It was about being a humble person. Fire and brimstone had nothing to do with it. It was about love.
In
This kind of Orthoprax, apologist thinking may sound familiar to some of you. I also know there are many people reading this that don’t give a damn about halakha. But there are some that do. So in this post, I want to address the halakhic position on intermarriage, as well as the status of non-halakhic Jews within the Jewish community. I am talking to myself in
I never understood the big deal about intermarriage, probably because I was taught to think like halakhic man. Intermarriage, even with no conversion process, is hardly a halakhic crime. In the chumash - to which we are not allowed to add laws - intermarriage is forbidden only between Jews and the seven indigenous nations of the
In short, from every halakhic standpoint, intermarriage these days is not even a lav -- a negative restriction like keeping kosher. And yet, to people like my parents, a child can disregard kashrut completely, work every Sabbath, and it might hurt, it might not be great, but that child will never be cut off from the family. So long as he does not commit the cardinal sin: marrying a non-Jew!
This is folly worthy of Tevya.
If anything, the Torah goes out of its way to point out that we are judged not by our origins, but by our deeds. When Moses provokes God's wrath for failing to circumcise his children, it is his Midianite wife Tzippora who performs the rite and saves his life (Ex.
When in
Are we truly to believe that there is no place in this religion for people of another race, or even another faith? That we are expected to immediately cast intermarried family members out on the rocks, without even meeting the people they've chosen to spend the rest of their lives with? What if those people are Tzipporas, or Ruths? What if God has sent them for a reason?
But CandyMan, you say, we can't pasken/decide from the Bible! The Written Torah is only one side of the coin. Surely, the Oral Torah must command us to cut off children who intermarry?
On the contrary. The halakhic mind is a rational one. It's a mind of prioritization, and categorization, and it's seen it all before. Halakha might categorize children from an intermarriage as Jews or non-Jews, but it is unlikely to recommend destroying a family on such a flimsy basis.
How big a priority is it to get along? The houses of Shammai and Hillel disagreed on what was ritually clean and who you could marry. Yet they did not refrain from borrowing dishes from one another, nor from intermarrying (Mishna Y'vamot 1:4).
Not for a second am I convinced that my father's "amputation" of me is in any way a halakhic response. No, any rabbi worth his salt would know that the Torah says that you must live by these commandments - not die for them! And to the halakhic mind, the amputation of a family member is a very serious matter. There's no question this is an issue of sh'lom bayit/family harmony, which takes precedence over Rabbinic customs such as lighting menora and saying kiddush (B. Talmud Shabbat 23b). Given the extreme emotional and psychological duress of "amputation," it may even constitute pikuach nefesh/preserving a life, for which we violate all but the most fundamental precepts in the Torah (idol worship, incest/adultery, and murder).
How, then, should an Orthodox Jewish parent (or community) treat a child who intermarries? Well, if you truly believe in Orthodox Judaism, the first thing you should do is to consult with a trusted, experienced rabbi about the situation. In fact, consult a few. They may tell you something like this:
First, do no harm. Many intermarrying partners are themselves interested in Judaism, if only because their partner is a Jew. These are potential Ruths and Tziporas, ‘converts’ that make the Jewish nation stronger.
Can halakhic conversions be done where marriage is a motivating factor? The short answer is yes. The Talmud itself cites such a case. The upshot of the current Orthodox Jewish halakhic position is that it is up to every particular rabbi/court to decide whether the particular conversion is sincere enough. If you are interested in learning more about this topic, a good place to start is Rabbi Marc Angel’s book.
Last Rosh Hashana, I found myself in
What if the non-Jewish partner is not interested in Judaism at all, and your child nevertheless opts to marry him or her? In this case, you should keep in mind the motivations your child has for intermarrying.
In rare cases, the Jewish partner may actually be an Orthodox Jew, but feels compelled by love to marry his partner. From a halakhic standpoint, that’s an easy one. A similar discussion arose recently regarding the status of active male homosexuals within the Orthodox community. R. Chaim Rapoport argues that such an individual can be considered at worst a mumar l'tayavon/hedonistic renegade, and at best a tinnok she'nishba/Jew captured and reared by non-Jews, who is not judged for his lack of observance.1 The child in this case is still an Orthodox Jew and should be treated with the same respect as before.
In most cases, the intermarriage is just a symptom of a larger rejection of Orthodox or halakhic doctrine. This Jew simply does not believe in halakha, or perhaps God. How should the halakhic Jew approach a skeptic?
Back in the days of the mishna, when Pharisees dominated the intellectual scene, such a skeptic would probably be labeled an apikorus. But it has been a long time since those days. Today, non-Orthodox and non-Jewish schools of philosophical dominate. We live in an open society, and the influences of the modern world, as well as other streams of Judaism, are mitigating factors. Elements such as Biblical criticism, or the new appreciation of p'shat, have a huge impact on Jewish thought. (Indeed, a truly halakhic point of view should also take these new circumstances, or panim chadashot, into general consideration.2) Even the Chazon Ish, who was by no means modern Orthodox, argued that the status of apikorus could no longer be applied in practice. He instead encourages outreach “with acts of love and affection.” My guess is that any rabbi you ask will say something similar.
From this perspective, a skeptic child’s intermarriage changes nothing. Indeed, the concerned parent should work overtime to avoid conflict and make his child feel loved. Many people, like my father, assume that there is no halakhically acceptable way to attend a mixed wedding. Don’t assume! Ask some rabbis first! In many cases, the concern of sh’lom bayit may override your anticipated chumrot/stringencies. If your rabbis bar you from attending, explain it in those terms and express your sadness at missing such an important occasion. After the marriage, open your doors to the intermarried partner and family. Invite them over for Shabbat dinner. Bring that family closer to the fold! Indeed, research suggests that 80% of children from all half-Jewish marriages are raised with some degree of Jewish identity.3 They must be considered in the category of k'rovei yisrael -- and potential converts.
What irritates the situation is that even educated men, rabbis who should be much smarter, like R. Dr. Norman Lamm, are behaving like non-halakhic alter kokers -- thinking with their tears, and not their brains! Criticizing Noah Feldman for marrying a woman he loves, a woman who probably encourages their children to explore their Jewish heritage... and he's never even met the woman! Was not Miriam stricken with leprosy for this kind of talk? R. Lamm should be ashamed of himself!
These Jews are taking their cues from Fiddler on the Roof -- from Tevya, not Torah! It's one thing for my "areligious" grandfather (my grandmother's term) to make intermarriage his
Halakhic mind?
HA!
This is not the tradition I have picked up through my years of dedicated learning. My tradition, the rabbis of Pirkei, know the forest for the trees. They value open-mindedness, compassion, sensitivity. They are students of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing it vigorously. They check their egos at the door, and live by the mantra that the Torah's ways are gentle ways, and all its paths are paths of peace. And if it not be so, remove me from this book You are writing!
For if we are not moving towards peace, where are we moving?
(Next time, I’ll investigate the classic argument against intermarriage: that it threatens the survival of the Jewish people.)
1. R. Uri Cohen. "Relating to Orthodox Homosexuals: the Case for Compassion." Tradition 40:3, 2007. pp. 81.
2. There is a debate going on over the heart of Orthodox Judaism. Some think Orthodoxy is equivalent to Pharisaic or Rabbinic Judaism. Others, like me, have never seen it this way. We see Orthodoxy is a truth-seeking sect, devoted to doing what is true and what we believe God's will to be, based on all the available information. If we discover, for instance, that there is good reason to doubt the Oral Law, then Orthodox Judaism - by its very own standards - must correct these traditions post-haste.
3. R. Dr. Arthur Blecher, The New American Judaism, pp. 179.
109 comments:
I also would agree that being shunned by ones friends and family is probably the most reasonable first response to someone leaving Orthodoxy. It will possibly wake him up and force him to repent, or at least will limit the influence he has on others.
And the question regarding the Edomite has always seemed very lame to me. The verse was simply written with a prophetic knowledge of the future.
CM,
Yeah, seriously. It's a simple issue. More than anything else, Judaism is maintained as a way of life. It's built from the home out. If you start making homes with people who have no interest in and no potential to holding anything remotely like a Jewish identity then how long will Judaism persist as a meaningful entity?
Those "Tzipporas" in Hong Kong make a cute anecdote, but they're not representative of all the non-Jewish spouses who get married.
The issue I put to you though is whether you're arguing for intermarriage to be something acceptable within Judaism or something to which people should object but to not utterly reject the people who practice it? Because I'm with you to some degree with the latter idea, but very opposed to the former.
JP,
Any Jewish community where people feel free to marry gentiles will simply cease to exist.
I'll deal with 'survival' next post. This post is about halakha. Apparently you agree with me that intermarriage is not a big issue there.
I also would agree that being shunned by ones friends and family is probably the most reasonable first response to someone leaving Orthodoxy.
I think it's counterproductive. In my case, I'm generally very open to Judaism. But my father's response to my girlfriend has made me question whether the religion does more harm than good.
OP,
If you start making homes with people who have no interest in and no potential to holding anything remotely like a Jewish identity then how long will Judaism persist as a meaningful entity?
Again, survival is next post. This is about halakha.
The issue I put to you though is whether you're arguing for intermarriage to be something acceptable within Judaism or something to which people should object but to not utterly reject the people who practice it?
I think there will be a spectrum within Judaism. I don't expect Orthodox rabbis to begin encouraging interracial dating as a solution to the shidduch crisis. But I would like them to encourage more tolerance of skeptics, intermarried couples, homosexuals, etc.
CM,
"This is about halakha."
Is it really? I'm pretty confident that normative Halachic marriages cannot recognize kiddushin or nisuin between a Jew and non-Jew.
Harey at mekudeshet li ke dat Flying Spaghetti Monster?
As far as halochah goes, one is not permitted to be alone with a gentile of the opposite sex (issur yichud), let alone marry him or her.
Regarding the shunning of apostates, I think that the family and friends of the apostate (Jewish skeptic, whatever you want to call it) must make it clear that this is his problem, it will not become their problem and they will not enable him or support him anyway until he gets help.
all that memorizing... any connection with Zilbermans?
Anyhow... I've been enjoying the series. Keep it up!
OP,
I'm pretty confident that normative Halachic marriages cannot recognize kiddushin or nisuin between a Jew and non-Jew.
I'm not sure what status the marriage has, but that's hardly the issue. Can you go to the wedding? How should you treat the couple, before and after the wedding? Many people operate under the assumption that halakhic behavior is Tevya behavior. That's simply not true.
JP, if you know so much about yichud, please explain to me the basis of yichud p'nuya. Do you know why that law was enacted? Is the law different for non-Jews than for Jews?
As for your shunning of apostates, how do you explain the Chazon Ish I brought up?
Free,
glad you're enjoying the series! There's two more to come :)
I heard about the Zilberman method while I was in Israel, but I just sorta figured it out independently. I think memorizing is a great tool.
> Any Jewish community where people feel free to marry gentiles will simply cease to exist.
This says more about the sorry state of OJ than anything else. You're acknowledging here that OJ does not have any staying power on its own and can only survive by forcing people to conform.
> ...being shunned by ones friends and family is probably the most reasonable first response to someone leaving Orthodoxy.
Sure, it's reasonable. But as he clearly pointed out, it isn't halachic! Or are you saying that you can pick and choose when to be halachic?
The questions raised here go to the heart of the debate of whether Judaism is a religion or a nation (or both).
A nation wants to preserve itself. While this becomes one of the nation's ethical imperatives, somebody who leaves the nation, for example assuming another nationality, is not intrinsically immoral (unless he actually acts against his mother country, such as a spy). Sad, yes. Pragmatically problematic, yes. Culturally problematic yes. But immoral, no.
A religion also wants to preserve itself, but here, the different streams of Judaism see the mix of ethics, morals, and ethnicity in different proportions. The case of an individual freely choosing to abandon the beliefs of the religion will have varying signficance depending on this mix.
Personally I believe that Jews are primarily a nation, and Judaism is the remnant of their ancient faith. I think that Israelism/Zionism (for all its problems) is destined to replace what we know as Diaspora Judaism, which will most likely disappear in the future.
For many people, intermarrying is the logical and final step in leaving the Jewish nation. For some it is not. Overall I see it as a negative phenomenon but for practical reasons, not moral ones.
CM,
"I'm not sure what status the marriage has, but that's hardly the issue."
Are you sure? By halachic definition, a marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew is no marriage at all. You may have a ceremony legitimized by other authorities but I don't believe Halacha would recognize it at all.
"Can you go to the wedding? How should you treat the couple, before and after the wedding? Many people operate under the assumption that halakhic behavior is Tevya behavior. That's simply not true."
In the end it's essentially a political methodology based on Halachic values. Raising a Jewish family, passing on Judaism to the next generation - these are traditional mitzvot aseh, fundamental values, which by marrying out one is turning their back on. So how should the rest of Jewry respond to this?
In the olden days the most effective political methodology of the Jewish authorities was cherem and the Tevya character personalizes the attitude. How to stop people from marrying out? By making the personal consequences very severe as a method of dissuasion.
In today's world where the Jewish authorities largely work with a purely elective laity and intermarriage is extremely common perhaps the time for that harshness has passed and a more tolerant approach would be more effective. I don't know the answer.
"Last Rosh Hashana, I found myself in Hong Kong with my girlfriend. We attended a Reform service. The rabbi stood up and lauded the many non-Jewish or converted spouses who brought their children to synagogue services. “These locals are putting their Jewish spouses to shame,” he said. “Even though they were not raised Jewish, they are the bedrock of our community, more so than their Jewish spouses.”"
Thr Reform movement didn't educate them and then they complain about the congregants.
hedyot,
Any Jewish community where people feel free to marry gentiles will simply cease to exist.
This says more about the sorry state of OJ than anything else. You're acknowledging here that OJ does not have any staying power on its own and can only survive by forcing people to conform.
Beautiful point, beautifully made. Way to turn his own words against him.
drj,
Personally I believe that Jews are primarily a nation, and Judaism is the remnant of their ancient faith. I think that Israelism/Zionism (for all its problems) is destined to replace what we know as Diaspora Judaism, which will most likely disappear in the future.
Interesting perspective, informed by your own living in Israel. I like how you put it in terms of nationhood. I think you are looking very far ahead, to a post-religious era, and may be on to something.
OP,
By halachic definition, a marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew is no marriage at all.
OK, I see what's bothering you. You are thinking, I don't have to go to the wedding, because it's not a halakhic wedding.
However, there is something to be said for the status of the wedding among non-Jews. Marital sanctity is part and parcel of the Noachide laws, which apply to all human beings. This is also part of the halakhic tradition. Furthermore, dina d'malchuta dina -- the law of the state is law, and must be respected.
Furthermore, what harm does it do to attend the wedding? What law might you transgress? Everyone seems to say, "It would show approval." That's rather vague. What halakhic framework do you envision forbidding you to attend a mixed wedding?
Raising a Jewish family, passing on Judaism to the next generation - these are traditional mitzvot aseh, fundamental values, which by marrying out one is turning their back on.
This is your opinion, but intermarriage per se does not preclude passing along such values. People get married because they love the other person, not because they are trying to make a statement about the value of Judaism.
You must also realize that the halakhic mind does not try to predict the future. People are to be judged "b'asher hu sham" - as they stand. There are numerous examples of this, the most famous being a midrash about why God saved Hagar and Ishmael. The concept is so entrenched in halakha that it caused R. Simon to reject the historicity of the Biblical wayward son: "because this [child] ate a pound of meat and drank a liter of Italian wine his father and mother take him out to be stoned? Rather, the wayward son never was and will never be." (Sanhedrin 71a)
These kinds of rationale arguments - this person is turning her back on Judaism, what kind of future will they have - are simply halakhic non-starters. On the other hand, the imperatives of sh'lom bayit and loving one's fellow are powerful injunctions. On what grounds do you abandon the strict for the lenient?
In the end it's essentially a political methodology based on Halachic values... In the olden days the most effective political methodology of the Jewish authorities was cherem and the Tevya character personalizes the attitude... In today's world... perhaps the time for that harshness has passed and a more tolerant approach would be more effective.
So, you think Tevya was acting in accordance with halakha? Then WHAT WAS HIS HALAKHIC SOURCE? Is there some secret clause of Maimonides that I'm missing? It's possible that Tevya, and you, know something that I don't... but I suspect you have no source in mind, and are simply paskening from Fiddler on the Roof. That's not a good enough halakhic source, sorry.
I think the true halakhic position has always been one of increasing tolerance and keeping families together in spite of their differences. Being "marbeh shalom." Isn't that the meaning of the mishna in Y'vamot that I quoted? Look it up. Of course, there are different streams within halakha. But ultimately, Shammai only wins a few arguments. Hillel's school won out.
A convert once came to Hillel and asked him to teach him the Torah on one foot. He said, Love your fellow as yourself. The rest is commentary. Tsai ul'mad!
hedyot,
...being shunned by ones friends and family is probably the most reasonable first response to someone leaving Orthodoxy.
Sure, it's reasonable. But as he clearly pointed out, it isn't halachic! Or are you saying that you can pick and choose when to be halachic?
Yes, this is exactly the point!
The absolute hatred of heretics is basic to Judaism. I don’t see how the Chazon Ish disagrees with this.
The prohibition of being alone with an unrelated member of the opposite sex applies to gentiles as much as to Jews.
The idea that since the Jewish community would disappear if Jews would practice intermarriage demonstrates the weakness of the Jewish community is ludicrous. No small minority community can continue to exist if it intermarries with the majority population.
> The idea that since the Jewish community would disappear if Jews would practice intermarriage demonstrates the weakness of the Jewish community is ludicrous. No small minority community can continue to exist if it intermarries with the majority population.
No one was saying that they will continue to exist if they do all actually intermarriage. The weakness is in the fact that you need the social pressure to get them not to intermarry, and that according to you, on it's own OJ does not provide enough of a motivation to stay committed.
"on it's own OJ does not provide enough of a motivation to stay committed"
I don't understand that. "OJ" is some magnetic field which has to hold people in "on it's own"?
We have to cut back on the cannabis a little, methinks.
There are cases where people need to be pressured by others to do the right thing. Therefore, every society has laws, police, prisons, etc.
> I don't understand that. "OJ" is some magnetic field which has to hold people in "on it's own"?
Uhh... yes, of course! People should stay with something because they value it, not because they're being forced to!
It's not that it has to hold them. It's that if it was truly worthwhile to them, it would hold them automatically. You don't have to pressure, or cajole, or scare, or beg people to stay committed to something that they truly find valuable and indispensable.
It amazes me that you actually believe that on its own OJ does not offer a compelling enough value proposition to convince its adherents to stay committed to it, and therefore its necessary to force people to comply.
"It amazes me that you actually believe that on its own OJ does not offer a compelling enough value proposition to convince its adherents to stay committed to it, and therefore its necessary to force people to comply."
It amazes me that you actually believe that on its own American democracy does not offer a compelling enough value proposition to convince its adherents to stay committed to it, and therefore its necessary to force people to comply.
It amazes me that you actually believe that on its own American democracy does not offer a compelling enough value proposition to convince its adherents to stay committed to it, and therefore its necessary to force people to comply.
Except it doesn't. You are perfectly free to try to ammend the Constitution to turn the United States into a Monarchy if it floats your boat.
Nice try though.
I want to be King!
The point is that every society, no matter how "compelling" has law enforcement because some people just don't get it.
JP, two questions:
- on what grounds is yichud p'nuya forbidden? A single woman is not an erva.
- on what grounds is yichud ever forbidden with a gentile woman? A gentile woman is never an erva.
As for your hatred of apostates, you should review pirkei avot. I don't think you are being mitalmidav shel aharon, ohev shalom v'rodef shalom, ohev et habriot um'karvan la-torah. I think the chazon ish would disagree with your hatred.
Wasn't it Ezekiel who said, I [God} do not hate the sinner, but only wish that he turn away from his sins and live?
Is this idea not central to Yom Kippur davening?
The law enforcement of our society does not compel people to stay American. Nor is it intended to do so. If someone feels that he sees no value in being a member of this society he is perfectly able to leave it and go somewhere else.
The point is that every society, no matter how "compelling" has law enforcement because some people just don't get it.
Except that most cultures (or, as in this case sub-cultures, since we are talking about Orthodox Judaism in America) don't resort to shunning to try to compel membership.
There is an enormous difference between people staying with (or embracing) a culture because they want to, and people remaining because they fear the penalties for leaving.
"on what grounds is yichud ever forbidden with a gentile woman?"
The fact that it is proves that everything else is surely forbidden.
Well, hatred of apostates seems to be consistent with the Passover Haggadah:
The wicked one, what does he say? "What is this service to you?!" He says `to you,' but not to him! By thus excluding himself from the community he has denied that which is fundamental. You, therefore, blunt his teeth and say to him: "It is because of this that the L-rd did for me when I left Egypt"; `for me' - but not for him! If he had been there, he would not have been redeemed!"
"If someone feels that he sees no value in being a member of this society he is perfectly able to leave it and go somewhere else."
So can Jews who want to be atheists or whatever - just leave. But you cannot stay in my house or in my synagogue with your gentile wife.
The law enforcement of our society does not compel people to stay American. Nor is it intended to do so. If someone feels that he sees no value in being a member of this society he is perfectly able to leave it and go somewhere else.
Well said, Hedyot. And I might add that very few actually leave America. In fact, the waiting list for American citizenship is years long. Years long.
Hal'vai Judaism could offer such promise.
Well, hatred of apostates seems to be consistent with the Passover Haggadah:
Hmmmm, well at least you managed to bring some kind of source. Still, you do not reject the wicked son. You answer him.
As I said before, there are many streams in our tradition. The question becomes, which is the dominant one? I do not submit that there is no place at all for chastisement of the wicked. You know this as well - in your original coment, you stated that shunning is a reasonable FIRST response. But what is your recourse?
I further challenge your thesis that intermarriage is the cardinal sin, worthy of such extreme measures as cutting off a child or kicking him out of shul. I think this is not Orthodox Jewish tradition, but Jewish Philosopher imagination. Cite a source or shut up!
So can Jews who want to be atheists or whatever - just leave. But you cannot stay in my house or in my synagogue with your gentile wife.
And yet, if an American takes Canadian citizenship, they can still travel freely between the two nations, work in America (in many cases), are protected by American law while here, and are not treated as dead by their American friends and family.
Your example needs a bit more work.
> So can Jews who want to be atheists or whatever - just leave. But you cannot stay in my house or in my synagogue with your gentile wife.
And once again, as you typically do, you have totally changed the point of the discussion.
This wasn't a discussion of whether they can or cannot leave. It was whether, according to you, OJ has enough value to motivate people to stick with it without forcing them against their will.
Your position on the issue seems clear - it doesn't.
Oh, I should also note that for quite a few years now America has allowed for dual-Citizenship.
"I further challenge your thesis that intermarriage is the cardinal sin, worthy of such extreme measures as cutting off a child or kicking him out of shul."
What Orthodox synagogue accepts or has ever accepted intermarried couples? This is ridiculous.
"It was whether, according to you, OJ has enough value to motivate people to stick with it without forcing them against their will."
It's motivating me. Whether it will motivate every moron, pervert and criminal, maybe not. And there are plenty of gentiles clamoring to become Jews.
> Well, hatred of apostates seems to be consistent with the Passover Haggadah
I find it interesting that you use this as proof that people should hate disbelievers because I had a blog post a while back where I wrote that one of my turnoffs to OJ was how everyone would love to rip on the wicked son, and all along I felt a kinship with him. So i knew that they were ripping on me too.
Many of the responses I got to that post were that my feelings were misplaced and that no one really hates the wicked son.
It's nice to see you validating my perspective!
"It's nice to see you validating my perspective!"
You bet I am baby. And check out the earliest, uncensored text of the 12th Amidah blessing:
For the renegades let there be no hope, and may the arrogant kingdom soon be rooted out in our days, and the Nazarenes and the heretics perish as in a moment and be blotted out from the book of life and with the righteous may they not be inscribed. Blessed art Thou, O Lord, who humblest the arrogant.
Yeah, that was one another text that always disturbed me. Of course, when I raised my objections to my rabbeim they assured me it was meant for people who were deliberately persecuting the Jewish people at the time and not people who simply were trying to live their own lives as they saw fit.
As annoying as it sometimes is to engage you in discussion, it's nice to have you around for the sole purpose of proving just how much negativity and acrimony there is in the frum world (and as you love to point out - in the rabbinic tradition itself)!
You might want to read up on the background of that bracha here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n2_v44/ai_17379710
Total, burning hatred for those absolute scumbag traitors who, although raised as observant Jews, have chosen to deny God, the Torah or the authority of Talmudic law. That's basic Judaism and I'm proud of it.
for the last number of years, when I returned home for the high holidays, I was given the kavod of pticha for the repetition of the amidah during minchah on yom kippur. following my marriage, my father cautioned me that I might not receive that kavod b/c of my marriage. alas, that was not the case. my streak continues.
but I will say I do not wear a tallit in shul except when I am called up to the bimah...
I figured, askanazim wear a tallit following marriage, sephardim wear a tallit following bar mitzvah. I choose not wear a tallit at all...
in addition, when I was davening with Chabad on Rosh Hashanah last year, I got an aliyah on the second day...
What did that have to do with my burning hatred?
What did that have to do with my burning hatred?
The whole Internet isn't about you, JP.
The whole Internet isn't about you, JP.
LOL!
kid charlemagne,
following my marriage, my father cautioned me that I might not receive that kavod b/c of my marriage. alas, that was not the case. my streak continues.
Wow. It seems your family and shul are really accepting of you. That's great, and to their credit.
I think when you engage them, they engage you. It's all about ego and emotion. But you have to call their bluff.
JP,
"on what grounds is yichud ever forbidden with a gentile woman?"
The fact that it is proves that everything else is surely forbidden.
Cite me an actual halakhic source (read, code) that demonstrates that it is forbidden. Chassidishe mussar ma'asehs don't count. Until then, I'm not taking your word for it.
Furthermore, you demonstrate your ignorance here of the motivations behind halakhic issurim. For instance, any high schooler should know that yichud p'nuya is a provision against rape. As usual, you are showing that your own knowledge of Judaism is only skin deep.
If you don't understand the reasons behind halakhot, you should be very careful about the meanings you read into them. True Torah knowledge requires years of dedicated study.
What Orthodox synagogue accepts or has ever accepted intermarried couples? This is ridiculous.
I don't know about Orthodox membership in such a synagogue, but most shuls aren't going to kick you out (or your gentile wife) for coming to services. Again, you are defending a position that is Tevya Judaism, not Orthodox Judaism. You are defending a fiction (and not for the first time).
Thr Reform movement didn't educate [its congregants]
At least Reform know what they don't know. Every Orthodox layman fancies himself a rabbi.
Kid Charlemagne -
I don't know the background of your situation. Can you clarify to me - is your wife not Jewish? And is your fathers shul Orthodox?
"The whole Internet isn't about you, JP."
That's what's wrong with it.
Candy Man, you know you can't have sex with a gentile according to Orthodox Judaism, right? Are you disputing that? You aren't even allowed to be in a room alone with her.
The question is, is it worse than driving on Saturday morning. Probably not. Is shooting yourself in the head worse than setting off a hydrogen bomb under your desk? Well, they both aren't too healthy.
Candy Man, you know you can't have sex with a gentile according to Orthodox Judaism, right? Are you disputing that? You aren't even allowed to be in a room alone with her.
I'm disputing anything you cite without a halakhic source and rationale. If there is such a law, what is its source? When did it originate? How serious is it? Why was it instituted?
This is where things like your "kal v'chomer" from yichud fall apart. You can't compare apples and oranges. Hell, you haven't even cited a codified source for issur yichud with a non-Jew.
I haven't looked into it in detail, personally. There certainly is no Biblical prohibition against sex with a non-Jew. Perhaps a Rabbinic prohibition exists, but I do not know the source for such a thing. You compare it to driving on Shabbat, but in reality it sounds more like eating tuna sushi out... or a lesser prohibition.
Now, what I do know is that sh'lom bayit and proper treatment of others (Jew or non-Jew) are Biblical mitzvot aseh, and carry a lot of weight. To cut someone off or even treat him rudely based on what is at best a d'Rabbanan which he feels compelled to violate for the sake of love - I just don't see the halakhic framework for such an extreme action.
Here is a "kal v'chomer" maybe you can understand:
If homosexuals, who violate a Biblical commandment worthy of execution, are to be tolerated and respected within the Orthodox community by virtue of their status as (at worst) mumar l'tayavon (as in R. Rappaport's ruling, cited in the post)...
Then intermarried Jews, who violate at worst a Rabbinic injunction worthy of a slap on the wrist, are certainly to be tolerated and respected within the Orthodox community!
"Total, burning hatred for those absolute scumbag traitors who, although raised as observant Jews, have chosen to deny God, the Torah or the authority of Talmudic law. That's basic Judaism and I'm proud of it."
This idea comes from antiquity and characterizes all primitive religions. The concept of a heretic. But this idea deserves to go in the trashbin of history. Only primitives speak of "heretics". There is now a free marketplace of ideas--competing faiths, science, philosophies, etc, in which people choose what they believe. You can't force a person into believing (other than total brainwashing in childhood) by any of your "techniques". The best evidence for this is the non-belief of the vast majority of world Jews, and all of the non-Jews. Orthodox Judaism simply fails to compete in the marketplace of ideas.
Therefore one can decide to remain in the Jewish nation but not believe in the tenets of the Jewish faith (other than the ethical/philosophical/societal aspects).
Religious coercion only goes so far.
R Amital from Yeshivat Har Etzion, in Alonie Etzion, as well as many others, have stated that the classic halachic statements regarding "heretics" do not apply today in most situations.
"The Candy Man said...
Thr Reform movement didn't educate [its congregants]
At least Reform know what they don't know."
How can they know what they don't know when they are told they receive enough info?
"Every Orthodox layman fancies himself a rabbi."
No. On the contrary they seek guidance from them.
"I'm disputing anything you cite without a halakhic source and rationale."
I don't think the text is on the web, but any rabbi can show it to you in the Rambam.
"This idea comes from antiquity"
Everything in Judaism comes from antiquity. And if it was of recent origin, you would complain "it's just some new idea".
"Orthodox Judaism simply fails to compete in the marketplace of ideas. "
I disagree. Whenever it is in the marketplace of ideas it has an influence. The majority of those who are not Orthodox are not aquanted with even their NonOrthodox movements official positions let alone Orthodoxy's.
Orthodox Judaism simply fails to compete in the marketplace of ideas.
I think this is well put, drj. I'd qualify it in that OJ works for some, but certainly doesn't fit everyone - not even every Jew.
In the larger sense, I think all streams of denominational Judaism should start thinking about the "competitiveness" of Judaism in the free marketplace of ideas today. I feel like Judaism has stagnated - it is so caught up in the past, it is not leading anymore. The same has happened to all organized religions.
We gotta let go of the past and start thinking about the future.
Total, burning hatred for those absolute scumbag traitors who, although raised as observant Jews, have chosen to deny God, the Torah or the authority of Talmudic law. That's basic Judaism and I'm proud of it.
I really don't think so, JP. The stories in the Talmud about Elisha b. Avuya are not characterized by burning hatred. They use Acher's apostasy as a springboard to discuss issues that troubled their own minds - how one can fall from a tree while performing shiluach hakain/sending free the mother bird and fall to his death, e.g., despite being promised long life in the Bible.
The mind of the Talmud, and the Rambam, is not characterized by the fire and brimstone that draws you to Orthodox Judaism. You are like me in my teenage years, full of anger and hatred, but without a clue as to what the Torah actually says.
the candy man says:
"Wow. It seems your family and shul are really accepting of you. That's great, and to their credit."
I wouldn't say that the shul is accepting. My wife has never been to shul with me, whether the orthodox shul I grew up in or the traditional conservative shul I attend now(I am the only member not collecting social security but I get maftir once a month and an aliyah everytime I show up.)
let's just say my parents had a choice, lose a son or gain a daughter-in-law. the concept of shalom bayet was instilled by parents when I was young and is practiced in our family. in terms of the orthodox shul, I certainly do not flaunt the fact that I am married to a wonderful Korean woman, but then again, I only go to the orthodox shul on rosh hashannah, yom kippur and erev pesach. otherwise I attend the shul in my neighborhood.
CM,
"OK, I see what's bothering you. You are thinking, I don't have to go to the wedding, because it's not a halakhic wedding."
Why would you ever have to go to a wedding, halachic or not?
"However, there is something to be said for the status of the wedding among non-Jews."
Sure, but between a Jew and a non-Jew, what does it symbolize from the Halachic perspective?
"Furthermore, what harm does it do to attend the wedding? What law might you transgress? Everyone seems to say, "It would show approval." That's rather vague. What halakhic framework do you envision forbidding you to attend a mixed wedding?"
I think it's rather straightforward. It is against halacha to encourage people to sin. Attending a mixed wedding, celebrating it, is a form of encouragement. Are there plausible and reasonable leniencies? Sure. But the strict approach is definitely well supported in the Halachic framework.
"This is your opinion, but intermarriage per se does not preclude passing along such values."
How exactly do you intend on passing down Judaism to the next generation of Jews - if your own kids are not going to be Jews?
"People get married because they love the other person, not because they are trying to make a statement about the value of Judaism."
Ok... And people worship Jesus because they're fond of him, not because they're saying anything about Judaism. Actions speak louder than words and much louder than intentions.
"You must also realize that the halakhic mind does not try to predict the future. People are to be judged "b'asher hu sham" - as they stand."
What's the relevance of this? In your post I guess you were trying to do your best to ignore the evolution of Halacha since the time of Ezra, but intermarriage with non-Jews has been a forbidden action for thousands of years.
"On the other hand, the imperatives of sh'lom bayit and loving one's fellow are powerful injunctions. On what grounds do you abandon the strict for the lenient?"
Say what? Accepting fully those who intermarry is a method of encouraging more people to intermarry. You might as well argue "shalom bayit" for idol worshipers.
"So, you think Tevya was acting in accordance with halakha? Then WHAT WAS HIS HALAKHIC SOURCE? Is there some secret clause of Maimonides that I'm missing?"
Are you seriously unfamiliar with Issurai Biah? The Rambam talks about executing non-Jews like animals if they have relations with Jews. In comparision, merely not attending the wedding is hugely tolerant.
"I think the true halakhic position has always been one of increasing tolerance and keeping families together in spite of their differences. Being "marbeh shalom.""
Yes, and that sounds very nice. But Halacha also has a harsher side that maintains boundaries and excludes types of behavior. You're being intentionally misleading when you try to present Halacha as accepting anything for the sake of peace.
Something that ahs always puzzled me is that halakhic marriage doesn't recognize marriage to a no-Jew because if they don't recognize Judaism then they can't be accepting of the contract under Jewish Law. So a "marriage" to a non-Jew is simply no marriage. On the other hand we have the prohibition on intermarriage based on Ezra's prohibition of foreign marriages. But as far as modern Judaism is concerned those aren't marriages. Seems like a contradiction to me.
I was brought up modern orthodox. My wife isn't Jewish. My brother and mother came to my wedding from Israel. Yes they are M.O. They didn't seem to have any significant problems doing so.
P.S. You know if JP wants to shun apostates he really shouldn't be debating them on the internet :)
"What Orthodox synagogue accepts or has ever accepted intermarried couples? This is ridiculous."
That in itself is ridiculous. In my MO synagogue in London when I was growing up there was at least one couple the woman was Jewish the man not. He long came to shul and eventually converted. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples...
The Rambam talks about executing non-Jews like animals if they have relations with Jews. In comparision, merely not attending the wedding is hugely tolerant.
Good, good, good. I like when people cite sources. I went and looked up the Rambam's take on this issue (I am much more a Tanachist/Talmudist than a Rishonim person, and I never memorized any Rambam).
As you describe, the Rambam cites "kanain pog'in bo," which of course someone would have to mention here. It should be noted that the source of the law is Pinchas, a case where idolatry was being performed. The Rambam does not seem to think this is important; however, I think he's wrong, and the execution of Zimri was permissible only because of the idolatrous circumstance.
Let's say, however, that the Rambam was right. Even if Zimri was executed for sleeping with a non-Jew (a crime which Moses committed not once, but twice), that law applies in a very limited circumstance (in public in front of ten witnesses and at the time of the act), and is considered "halakha v'ain morin kain".
The Rambam further argues that there is a Biblical imperative against intermarriage with all non-Jews, based on an extremely weak drasha:
א כִּי יְבִיאֲךָ, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֶל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-אַתָּה בָא-שָׁמָּה לְרִשְׁתָּהּ; וְנָשַׁל גּוֹיִם-רַבִּים מִפָּנֶיךָ הַחִתִּי וְהַגִּרְגָּשִׁי וְהָאֱמֹרִי וְהַכְּנַעֲנִי וְהַפְּרִזִּי, וְהַחִוִּי וְהַיְבוּסִי--שִׁבְעָה גוֹיִם, רַבִּים וַעֲצוּמִים מִמֶּךָּ. ב וּנְתָנָם יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, לְפָנֶיךָ--וְהִכִּיתָם: הַחֲרֵם תַּחֲרִים אֹתָם, לֹא-תִכְרֹת לָהֶם בְּרִית וְלֹא תְחָנֵּם. ג וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן, בָּם:
Here again, even from a halakhic POV, there is grounds to say that the Rambam is simply wrong. The passage specifies that only the seven nations are banned from intermarrying. The Rambam's drasha comes from the word "bam" - "of them." In the verse, this clearly refers only to the specified seven nations. Now, we have a rule in drashot: ain mikra yotzai miday p'shuto. That means, drashot are well and fine, but ultimately the literal meaning of the text cannot be ignored. In this case, I think the Rambam missed the boat. There is no Biblical imperative forbidding intermarriage, never has been. The Rambam's position is difficult to defend in light of Biblical p'shat.
Let this point not be light in your eyes. The Torah specifies very clearly that we are not allowed ot add or take away a single law to it. Lo tosifu alav, v'lo tigr'u mimenu. This is a clear and obvious Biblical imperative. If and when the Talmud brings down a drasha that contradicts the Written Law, that drasha cannot simply be accepted as Torah. Instead, a normative Orthodox Jewish position is to attribute such drashot as Rabbinical bans that are being given midrashic "support". Such drashot are extremely common, and I am not the first one to explain midrash this way (I think it was either Rashbam, or Rambam himself in Moreh N'vuchim, who explains this). Those who would add their own chumras to the level of Biblical imperative risk transgressing bal tosif.
(Furthermore, the Rambam fails on a technicality. Lo titchaten means you should not marry your CHILDREN off. It applies to parents, not grooms and brides.)
But let's again play devil's advocate and take the Rambam's position, that intermarriage with ANY non-Jew is a Biblical offense, even though this contradicts the p'shat of the Torah. Even according to this view, the offense is only for the one-time event of the marriage, and it is only punishable by makkot. This is akin to someone eating a cheeseburger.
Now, even if you totally buy into the Rambam's argument, and you see the wedding act as a one-time issur d'oraita, how do you respond to it? Do you use this "cheeseburger" as an excuse to cut off a child? I think the halakha would say no, at least today. The Rambam also advocates a hard line against the apikorus, but things have changed and the accepted OJ approach towards the apikorus today is one of kiruv (from the Chazon Ish). Certainly, the intermarried Jew, who is motivated by love, is no worse than the apikorus.
I am not saying that you should or should not attend mixed weddings, but I doubt any rabbi today would advocate cutting off a child for marrying a woman he loves who happens not to be Jewish. Each case will be different, depending on what people are comfortable with. But kanain pog'in bo? No rabbi will tell you that. Never would.
kid charlemagne,
My wife has never been to shul with me, whether the orthodox shul I grew up in or the traditional conservative shul I attend now(I am the only member not collecting social security but I get maftir once a month and an aliyah everytime I show up.)
LOL. It sounds like a more traditional Conservative place. But I guess they wouldn't kick her out of the Ezrat Nashim.
let's just say my parents had a choice, lose a son or gain a daughter-in-law. the concept of shalom bayet was instilled by parents when I was young and is practiced in our family. in terms of the orthodox shul, I certainly do not flaunt the fact that I am married to a wonderful Korean woman
I definitely appreciate you weighing in on this and describing your experiences. You are a straight-talker.
moom,
I was brought up modern orthodox. My wife isn't Jewish. My brother and mother came to my wedding from Israel. Yes they are M.O. They didn't seem to have any significant problems doing so.
Interesting story. I like hearing from people who have been through this in reality.
In my MO synagogue in London when I was growing up there was at least one couple the woman was Jewish the man not. He long came to shul and eventually converted. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples...
Again, nice to hear a real-world example. As some are fond of saying, actions speak louder than words. Or Hollywood dramas, as the case may be.
CM,
"As you describe, the Rambam cites "kanain pog'in bo," which of course someone would have to mention here."
That's one part of it. See 12:10 which is unrelated to kanaim and so on.
ישראל שבא על הגויה--בין קטנה בת שלוש שנים ויום אחד בין גדולה, בין פנויה בין אשת איש, ואפילו היה קטן בן תשע שנים ויום אחד--כיון שבא על הגויה בזדון, הרי זו נהרגת: מפני שבאת לישראל תקלה על ידיה, כבהמה
"That means, drashot are well and fine, but ultimately the literal meaning of the text cannot be ignored. In this case, I think the Rambam missed the boat. There is no Biblical imperative forbidding intermarriage, never has been. The Rambam's position is difficult to defend in light of Biblical p'shat."
Halacha is ultimately a human endeavor. Lo bashamayim hi. There are a ton of well-established Halachas with foundations in the text that leave something to be desired. If you want to conclude that the impulse against intermarriage is a rabbinic dictum then I'm equally fine with that.
And for you who doesn't recognize authority in either Halacha or scripture, I fail to see who you're attempting to convince.
"Even according to this view, the offense is only for the one-time event of the marriage, and it is only punishable by makkot. This is akin to someone eating a cheeseburger."
Wrong. The offense is sexual relations. Halachically there is no marriage. And the Rambam clearly concludes that the non-Jew is to be stoned like an animal.
"I am not saying that you should or should not attend mixed weddings, but I doubt any rabbi today would advocate cutting off a child for marrying a woman he loves who happens not to be Jewish."
As I said ealier, ultimately it's a political question with political conclusions. The problem is intermarriage and the question is how best to respond to it. Problems that involve all of klal yisrael - existential problems! - are always given precedent over the feelings or shalom bayit of individuals. A harsh response is and has been very well in the lines of Halacha. Lenient responses are also within the borders but they're hardly the only correct responses.
Moon,
"So a "marriage" to a non-Jew is simply no marriage. On the other hand we have the prohibition on intermarriage based on Ezra's prohibition of foreign marriages. But as far as modern Judaism is concerned those aren't marriages. Seems like a contradiction to me."
What's the contradiction? In all likelihood the formalized kiddushin we have today didn't exist at the time of Ezra.
as Reb Shabbtai Zissel ben Avraham said:
"The truth was obscure,
too profound and too pure,
to live it you have to explode."
"What's the contradiction? In all likelihood the formalized kiddushin we have today didn't exist at the time of Ezra."
I agree, but that's not my point... maybe I shouldn't have brought up Ezra. But if you agree that marrying non-Jews isn't the issue because it's not a marriage from the perspective of halakha, then the issue must be having sex with non-Jews. Something that seems to be debated both ways in these fora about whether it is prohibited or just something that is an issue of not being what a frum Jew should do i.e. midot or whatever.
Moom,
"But if you agree that marrying non-Jews isn't the issue because it's not a marriage from the perspective of halakha, then the issue must be having sex with non-Jews. Something that seems to be debated both ways in these fora about whether it is prohibited or just something that is an issue of not being what a frum Jew should do i.e. midot or whatever."
The issue for me is that intermarriage means a relative poor prioritization of Judaism and Jewish identity in peoples' lives and all too often the end of the great chain of Jewish heritage in that person's family. Its modern popularity poses a real existential threat to the persistence of the Jewish people, at least outside of Israel.
That the sex is a halachic issue only barely concerns me peripherally. In fact, this whole halachic debate is of only academic interest to me.
More on my story - my mother converted to Judaism - she made a choice one way, I can make a choice another way on the religious aspect - she converted in Australia 10 years before she met my father in Britain - luckily she has a very different attitude than that JP guy :) - My brother has 5 children all being raised Orthodox in Israel - and my cousins who are haredi have heaps and heaps of children... in Israel, Britain, America. So noone can worry about the end of Judaism in my father's family ;)
I studied for a couple of years at one of those BT yeshivot in Jerusalem (my brother studied at Yeshivat Bet El in the West Bank) and then did my undergrad degree at Hebrew University. So I speak Hebrew and am pretty well informed about Judaism.
My wife is from the PRC - we met in the US - and so has no real religious background.
Oh yeah, I'm 43 and got married this year (for the first time). So as some said my family is probably happy I got married at all :)
CM,
"Here again, even from a halakhic POV, there is grounds to say that the Rambam is simply wrong. The passage specifies that only the seven nations are banned from intermarrying."
Just for the sake of completeness, interestingly the Gemara at Kiddushin 68b agrees with you. They agree that that verse only goes so far as the seven Canaanite nations with only a svara to explain the general concept of not having a Jewish woman marry a goy because then the child would likely be brought up as a goy and lead to avodah zara. To demonstrate that all other nations are off-limits, they refer to the story of eishet yefat toar.
Since the Torah first requires a whole 30 day mourning period and so on before it allows marriage and intercourse with the captured non-Jew (without specifying the nation of the captive), it follows that otherwise the non-Jew, of whatever nationality, would normally be forbidden.
Great story, moom! My girlfriend is from PRC too. Hmmmmm...
OP,
Wrong. The offense is sexual relations. Halachically there is no marriage. And the Rambam clearly concludes that the non-Jew is to be stoned like an animal.
The truth is, I feel no requirement to defend the Rambam's outrageous position on this issue. All I can say is that he has no basis in Scripture, and is not representing what I consider to be a halakhic POV. Just because he's the Rambam does not give him license to overextend Rabbinic g'zayrot. His idea of stoning a non-Jew for a Rabbinic decree is pure imagination. In fact, all human beings are clearly warned against spilling blood from any of their fellow human beings without justification. God himself says that "he who spills the blood of a human being, his blood shall be spilled."
It's not the first time the Rambam's gotten something wrong, and I don't mind saying it. It's foolish readings like his that have caused us many problems over the years, and he was arrogant and foolish to state such things as if he had some kind of ruach hakodesh. There was perhaps a time in my life when I'd hesitate to take on the Rambam, but honestly that time has long passed and I feel very comfortable debating him. I wish more Jews would - too many relinquish their better judgment for that of some imperfect medieval thinker.
I would be curious to know what the Shulchan Aruch brings down on this. Ultimately the Rambam is just one vote in a halakhic chorus. He probably wouldn't approve of breaking Shabbat to save a non-Jewish life either, but times have changed. Halakha over time has overall gotten stricter, but there is an obvious trend for leniency towards non-Jews and Jews who have different views. In short, political correctness, much maligned by "conservative" Jews who read this blog, is very much a trend in modern Orthodox Jewish halakhic thought. This trend does not favor the Rambam's kind of "stone-the-animal" Judaism, which was never based on any real halakhic tradition to begin with.
The issue for me is that intermarriage means a relative poor prioritization of Judaism and Jewish identity in peoples' lives and all too often the end of the great chain of Jewish heritage in that person's family
Here I have to disagree. I think those who intermarry are actually helping Judaism, taking it beyond its racist roots. I am concerned when I see Jews marrying someone of exactly the same race or religious sect. It is discriminatory. It is unimaginative. It does little to build peace in the world. I think that kind of Tevya thinking has reduced Judaism to some kind of race-perpetuating exercise. It encourages sin'at chinam, of the type expressed by both JP here and the Rambam 600 years ago. If god exists, I don't think that's what he wants.
Reading the peshat of the Eishet Yefat Toar case one might think the Torah doesn't want the Jews to go around kidnapping women or assuming they can rape prisoners etc. When you dig through all the relevant verses to intermarriage in the Tenakh up to Esther... you can come up with all kinds of conflicting statements and ambiguous and ambivalent attitudes.
There's a nice collection here:
http://www.half-jewish.org/bibleintermarriage.shtml
" "Orthodox Judaism simply fails to compete in the marketplace of ideas. "
"I disagree. Whenever it is in the marketplace of ideas it has an influence. The majority of those who are not Orthodox are not aquanted with even their NonOrthodox movements official positions let alone Orthodoxy's."
I never said that it can't influence. But the fact is that other than in Israel, OJ remains a marginal influence in the US and the world. Why are most non-orthodox not acquainted with Judaism? Its not because of poor PR. Its because it remains an insular, particularistic ideology whose logic is not compelling to most people, and therefore has been reduced to a culture, philosophy and lifestyle choice for a small number of people. I'm not sure how to reconcile this fact with OJs ideology that it possesses the sole truth and is the "one true religion".
CM,
"The truth is, I feel no requirement to defend the Rambam's outrageous position on this issue."
That's fine - neither do I.
"All I can say is that he has no basis in Scripture, and is not representing what I consider to be a halakhic POV."
Oh, ok. From what _you_ consider 'a' halachic POV. You do not follow Halacha, nor do you believe in Scripture! Thanks for your two cents.
"His idea of stoning a non-Jew for a Rabbinic decree is pure imagination."
No, it's actually based directly off of the story of Midian where they round up all the sexually active women and kill them.
"I would be curious to know what the Shulchan Aruch brings down on this."
Even Haezer 16:1. Check it out.
"This trend does not favor the Rambam's kind of "stone-the-animal" Judaism, which was never based on any real halakhic tradition to begin with."
Oh, but Candyman's accept-all-things is a real halachic tradition?
"Here I have to disagree. I think those who intermarry are actually helping Judaism, taking it beyond its racist roots."
You would. And Messianic Jews are taking Judaism beyond it's annoying anti-Christian roots. Thanks. You're doing us all a huge favor.
“Intermarriage, even with no conversion process, is hardly a halakhic crime.”
Shulchan Aruch Even Ha-ezer 16:1 states it is a Biblical prohibition for a Jew to marry a gentile.
“How, then, should an Orthodox Jewish parent (or community) treat a child who intermarries?”
The Remo on Shulchan Aruch Even Ha-ezer 16:2 states that a zealous person may assassinate him.
Candy Man, I am not being sarcastic, I am being sincere. What type of Jewish education did you have which left you so ignorant of the most basic concepts? Did you attend yeshiva? Where? For how long?
"His idea of stoning a non-Jew for a Rabbinic decree is pure imagination."
No, it's actually based directly off of the story of Midian where they round up all the sexually active women and kill them.
Let's check this "direct" basis in the text (Numbers 24):
א וַיֵּשֶׁב יִשְׂרָאֵל, בַּשִּׁטִּים; וַיָּחֶל הָעָם, לִזְנוֹת אֶל-בְּנוֹת מוֹאָב. ב וַתִּקְרֶאןָ לָעָם, לְזִבְחֵי אֱלֹהֵיהֶן; וַיֹּאכַל הָעָם, וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ לֵאלֹהֵיהֶן. ג וַיִּצָּמֶד יִשְׂרָאֵל, לְבַעַל פְּעוֹר; וַיִּחַר-אַף יְהוָה, בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל.
This event with the Moabites and Midianites describes the scene at P'or to which you refer (either the two nations worked together, or the text uses the terms interchangeably here). It is obvious from the passage that idolatry was a key element in God's wrath.
Shulchan Aruch Even Ha-ezer 16:1 states it is a Biblical prohibition for a Jew to marry a gentile.
The Remo on Shulchan Aruch Even Ha-ezer 16:2 states that a zealous person may assassinate him.
Glad we looked it up. I'll check it out when I get the chance. However, you should realize that these "Biblical" traditions are nowhere to be found in the text of the Torah (Pentateuch) itself. The Torah is very clear that man can neither add nor take away from its laws. So, on halakhic grounds, I challenge the conclusions of the Rambam, Bayt Yosaif, and their crew. I contend that these are no more than Rabbinic laws, no matter how many "asmachta" the Rabbis of the Talmud brought from Scripture.
What type of Jewish education did you have which left you so ignorant of the most basic concepts? Did you attend yeshiva? Where? For how long?
I think the problem is that you haven't learned enough to distinguish between an asmachta and a d'orayta. I learned in yeshiva for several years in one of the highest yeshivot in the world. I have memorized over half of shas mishnayot and gone through approximately a thousand blatt g'mara. I am not an expert, however, in Jewish halakhic codes.
The laws to which you refer are not basic concepts. They are disputable. The later Rishonim, who codified halakha, in my opinion did a lot of damage. They made a lot of mistakes, and those mistakes have been codified and given authority. However, when you actually look up the sources, you'll find that they do not support such extreme ideas. The Talmud, by contrast, is much more subtle and nuanced. They also make mistakes, but since it's a chorus of voices it's harder for those mistakes to be canonized.
Now you, JP: can you read a daf g'mara without looking it up in the Artscroll? Have you learned through tray asar in the original? How is your proficiency with Hebrew and Aramaic?
"All I can say is that he has no basis in Scripture, and is not representing what I consider to be a halakhic POV."
Oh, ok. From what _you_ consider 'a' halachic POV. You do not follow Halacha, nor do you believe in Scripture! Thanks for your two cents.
I agree that my own ideas are rather "out there" from an OJ perspective. I am obviously not trying to represent the classic OJ perspective in this debate. Maybe I should.
Say we do take the Rambam and SA at face value, as many OJ rabbis might. These sources were written many centuries ago. Their practical applicability today on issues of human relationships is unclear. I have already cited three examples where the law has changed to fit the times:
- apikorus: these are no longer killed for believing something different, instead they should be treated with love (Chazon Ish)
- gay men: these are placed in the category of mumar l'tayavon, and to be treated with compassion (R. Chaim Rappaport)
- non Jews: one may desecrate the Sabbath to save their life (R. Moshe Feinstein)
It's nice to quote the "letter of the law," but you should acknowledge that this letter does not apply in any of the above cases. I contend that intermarriage today is no different. I have made this point several times.
This issue must have been discussed by modern day poskim. I wonder what Rav Moshe Feinstein had to say about it.
I think there are two distinct issues being discussed here that should be kept separate:
1) attending a mixed marriage wedding
2) shunning a son/daughter who has gotten married to a non-jew
In discussing these issues, I think the type of marriage would matter. Is it a secular non-religious marriage or is it a religious (non-jewish) marriage. If it's a secular marriage, I could hear it being easier from a halachic POV since avoda zara is not an issue.
We should keep in mind also that until recently the very idea of a secular marriage didn't exist, so earlier halachic writings would most probably be addressing a non-jewish religious marriage (which borders on avoda zara) and not simply about marrying a non-jewish person
"However, you should realize that these "Biblical" traditions are nowhere to be found in the text of the Torah (Pentateuch) itself."
The Pinchus and Zimri story is in the Torah, Numbers 25.
You seem to be pointing out that it does not state in the Torah "You will not marry a gentile." Agreed. However according to Orthodox Judaism marrying a gentile is indisputably against the will of God. It is absurd to debate that. No Orthodox rabbi in history has officiated at an intermarriage.
There is likewise no place in the Torah where it says to fast on Yom Kippur or to not go shopping on the Sabbath. So? You can allow anything you want to, but that is called Reform Judaism.
By the way, while you're allowing intermarriage, could you do something about the ban on lobster? I really want to try that.
"Why are most non-orthodox not acquainted with Judaism?"
It's because they have been deprived of a solid Jewish education even if they attend their synagogues. That's why. How can Orthodoxy compete in a marketplace of ideas for them when they are not in contact with it. When they are it competes nicely for them. Many people becoming more Jewish because they simply came into contact with Orthodoxy and thus Orthodoxy was able to compete in the marketplace of ideas for them. The biggest destroyer of Orthodoxy was not the marketplace of ideas but the marketplace.
"OJ remains a marginal influence in the US and the world."
It's hardly a marginal influence for Jews. It is is influencing the NonOrthodox movements and Jews tremendously.
"Here I have to disagree. I think those who intermarry are actually helping Judaism, taking it beyond its racist roots. I am concerned when I see Jews marrying someone of exactly the same race or religious sect. It is discriminatory. It is unimaginative. It does little to build peace in the world. I think that kind of Tevya thinking has reduced Judaism to some kind of race-perpetuating exercise. It encourages sin'at chinam, of the type expressed by both JP here and the Rambam 600 years ago. If god exists, I don't think that's what he wants."
It's not racist roots. We have been a mixed bag to begin with hence the inszstitution of coversion.You are being anachronistic and ignorant in ascribing to Ancient peoples modern day prejudices certainly as anything popular. As for the Rambam he didn't have sinas chinam. He was a worldly person and his ideas did not allow for philosophical particularism.
cm said:
""Here I have to disagree. I think those who intermarry are actually helping Judaism, taking it beyond its racist roots. I am concerned when I see Jews marrying someone of exactly the same race or religious sect. It is discriminatory. It is unimaginative. It does little to build peace in the world.
and let's not forget what all that intramarrying does, especially within the haredi communities. many, many children born with congenital neurological diseases. it just brings all those recessive genes to the surface
it just brings all those recessive genes to the surface
Not when you marry a convert like me! I'm loaded with good genes.
so I guess we should all go out, intermarry, convert our spouses and thus increase the diversity of the gene pool. we could get another Max (Slats) Zaslofsky .
This issue must have been discussed by modern day poskim. I wonder what Rav Moshe Feinstein had to say about it.
I think there are two distinct issues being discussed here that should be kept separate:
1) attending a mixed marriage wedding
2) shunning a son/daughter who has gotten married to a non-jew
Aryeh, thx for chiming in, I think you're on the right track. There are in fact many important mitigating halakhic factors, as I touched upon in my post.
It should be mentioned that Conservative rabbis also struggle with how to deal with intermarriage in the realm of halakha. You may not realize it, but Conservative Judaism takes a fairly hard line against those who intermarry without conversion. Several leading rabbis banded together to write a recent book, A Place Within The Tent, to deal with this. I believe a similar "meeting of the minds" would be beneficial for the Ortho rabbinical leadership.
OP,
You do not follow Halacha, nor do you believe in Scripture! Thanks for your two cents.
Just in my own defense (not that I have to defend myself against such attacks), you don't know me. I keep halakha in my own way. It may not be the way you keep it. But it is forged from my own learning, experience, and inner moral compass. The road has not been easy for me, and I have at time considered abandoning Judaism altogether. But I have stuck with it, and made it work to the best of my ability. Who knows? Maybe in a few years you'll be in my position.
cm said:
"I keep halakha in my own way. It may not be the way you keep it. But it is forged from my own learning, experience, and inner moral compass."
that is where it is at. my ema always said "you got to do what is good for you".
I know it is a clique but life is a journey. we are all on our own paths. sometimes they are parallel to one another. sometimes they cross. sometimes they diverge. it is not about where you end up, but the journey there.
I could also have toss my yiddishkeit out the window but there is a flame that burns deep down inside.
p.s. just redid the kitchen and put in wonderful light gold marble from Jerusalem. it was a closeout item so got it at a steep discount...
the hedyot:
> Any Jewish community where people feel free to marry gentiles will simply cease to exist.
"This says more about the sorry state of OJ than anything else. You're acknowledging here that OJ does not have any staying power on its own and can only survive by forcing people to conform."
DING! We have a winner!
the hedyot: "Sure, it's reasonable. But as he clearly pointed out, it isn't halachic! Or are you saying that you can pick and choose when to be halachic?"
It's more a matter of what is held to be halachic which is a matter of interpretation. It's not a lot different from the USA. The rule is create any law that doesn't violate the Constitution and reinterpret the Constitution till a violating law doesn't anymore.
Similarly, if the Torah doesn't stop you from turning a chumra or minhag into halacha, go for it if it floats your boat. Reinterpret the Torah via Talmudic expertise otherwise until you clear the hurdle. When everyone interprets it the way you want, you're good to go. On the rare times you can't engage in legalistic intellectual gymnastics not to mention plain tortured reasoning, make it so expected and demanded that it might as well be written in the Torah.
drj: "The questions raised here go to the heart of the debate of whether Judaism is a religion or a nation (or both)."
It's a floor polish. No, it's a salad topping. No, it's both.
That silliness is the heart of the debate because there is no debate. There's always been a practiced but silent acceptance of both simultaneously. Any time one deviates, grab the other one. In this way, neither is fulfilled to its best advantage or spiritual prosperity. A compromise made in heck, and given the human imperative towards binary either or thinking, a doomed one.
Strangely though, it is expected. People still speak of Christianity as if it were a separate nationality and people treat Muslims as Muslims and not Egyptians or Floridians though they may be either.
jp: "The idea that since the Jewish community would disappear if Jews would practice intermarriage demonstrates the weakness of the Jewish community is ludicrous. No small minority community can continue to exist if it intermarries with the majority population."
That depends on the definition of the community. As a religion, Judaism lives and breathes by the choice of the individual alone. As a nation, Judaism lives and breathes by lifeless demographic numbers. Which would you choose?
You can destroy a people defined by numbers through elimination of their number. You can't destroy a choice. When a people are defined by a choice, that people cannot be defeated but by convincing them to discard the idea and that is harder than killing them and the only way you can win against them. A simple choice defeats all comers.
jp: "There are cases where people need to be pressured by others to do the right thing. Therefore, every society has laws, police, prisons, etc."
No, society needs to protect itself from the very real direct immediate deleterious effects of some behaviors, must ultimately can only be truly safe by assimilating the disruptive elements and that means convincing them of their own will to choose a different path. Human society fails miserably at this and their legal and penal systems display it. The winner in the contest between a murderer and society is clearly the murderer if he dies, and moreover, unrepentant. The contest is over what is right, not who.
Watch Tank Girl. The bad guy keeps taunting and torturing Lori Petty giving her a chance to join him and she keeps mocking him and steadfastly refusing. All she has to do is stick with that choice and she gets to say every time, totally correctly, "I win."
CM,
"It is obvious from the passage that idolatry was a key element in God's wrath."
I agree, which is also why intermarriage concerns are largely based on the fear that the children will be lead to A"Z. In modern parlance that means an abandonment of Judaism.
The 'directness' of the source is simply in that the Rambam quotes it directly to support his conclusion.
"I keep halakha in my own way. It may not be the way you keep it. But it is forged from my own learning, experience, and inner moral compass."
That's super. I once put mud in a bowl and called it pudding.
>I agree, which is also why intermarriage concerns are largely based on the fear that the children will be lead to A"Z. In modern parlance that means an abandonment of Judaism
is that so? This seems to me like you are trying to equate Judaism with God. But Judaism is a man made social construct. God transcends that. To equate Judaism with God is actually A"Z
kc,
"I keep halakha in my own way. It may not be the way you keep it. But it is forged from my own learning, experience, and inner moral compass."
that is where it is at. my ema always said "you got to do what is good for you".
I know it is a clique but life is a journey. we are all on our own paths. sometimes they are parallel to one another. sometimes they cross. sometimes they diverge. it is not about where you end up, but the journey there.
I could also have toss my yiddishkeit out the window but there is a flame that burns deep down inside.
Good stuff! And a great discussion, everybody.
-suitepotato- said...
the hedyot:
"> Any Jewish community where people feel free to marry gentiles will simply cease to exist.
"This says more about the sorry state of OJ than anything else. You're acknowledging here that OJ does not have any staying power on its own and can only survive by forcing people to conform."
You are forgetting the child is not usually raised with Judaism so it is not a matter of staying power. According to your reasoning Reform and Conservative Judaism should not have intermarriage threatening them.
Aryeh,
"is that so? This seems to me like you are trying to equate Judaism with God. But Judaism is a man made social construct. God transcends that. To equate Judaism with God is actually A"Z"
I'm equating A"Z with "strange service," ie going after ways that are not ours. It's not idolatry as was once known, but it's the practical equivalent nowadays because it leads to the same loss of Jewish identity and practice.
Candy Man, getting back to the original issue, I think you are trying to convince yourself that theoretically were Hillel or Rabbi Akiva here today, they would explain to your father that what you are doing is really not a big problem and therefore he should love and accept you anyway.
Well, for one, you'll never convince me of that, nor would you convince too many other people very familiar with Hillel and Rabbi Akiva, including your father. I for one think you're father is doing the right thing and it's long overdue.
“It amazes me that you actually believe that on its own OJ does not offer a compelling enough value proposition to convince its adherents to stay committed to it, and therefore its necessary to force people to comply.”
This comment must be one of strangest I have ever seen discussed on the Internet.
There is no society in the world so attractive to everyone that all of its adherents stay committed to it for their entire lives. In particular, when you consider that Orthodox Judaism is arguably the most difficult and burdensome religion in the world, it’s amazing that so few who are born into it do leave.
>but it's the practical equivalent nowadays because it leads to the same loss of Jewish identity and practice.
the problem with A"Z is not that it leads to a loss of Jewish identity or practice, it's that it leads one away from God. One could leave Jewish practice and be close to God, they are not equivalent
Orthoprax,
I think you're thinking of the concept of chukas akum (foreign rites) which is a much lesser halachic problem than A"Z
JP,
I think you are trying to convince yourself that theoretically were Hillel or Rabbi Akiva here today, they would explain to your father that what you are doing is really not a big problem and therefore he should love and accept you anyway.
I think you get what I'm trying to say, JP. That's great! Actually, that's a pretty good restatement. Just keep thinking about it. Remember, I haven't gone into the details of my personal case very much. Each case will be different and should be evaluated individually. You would have to be familiar with me and my girlfriend before you really understood the particulars of my case.
I think you're thinking of the concept of chukas akum (foreign rites) which is a much lesser halachic problem than A"Z
An important halakhic distinction. Thank you.
The AZ status of Christianity, btw, is still halakhically debated today. I for one side with those who consider Christianity monotheistic (I think it's actually pretty obvious).
I have to thank God that we in our midst today anonymous bloggers who don't even keep Shabbos but who have a Talmudic knowledge surpassing Rabbi Yosef Karo, author of the Shulchan Aruch. Wonders on the Internet never cease.
It's also interesting that you are marrying a woman from China. I guess you are so attractive, you frightened away all the American women.
Just keep reading Pirkei Avot, JP. Think to yourself, what would Hillel do? Let that be your guide, my troubled child.
"what would Hillel do?"
The same thing Pinchus did in Numbers 25.
Hillel practically gave his life for Torah study. See Yoma 35b. The idea that he was a Reform rabbi is delusional.
Aryeh,
"the problem with A"Z is not that it leads to a loss of Jewish identity or practice, it's that it leads one away from God. One could leave Jewish practice and be close to God, they are not equivalent"
I agree, but practically they are the same. This is the theoretical basis behind the consistently negative conclusions poskim have had about intermarriage.
JP said:
In particular, when you consider that Orthodox Judaism is arguably the most difficult and burdensome religion in the world, it’s amazing that so few who are born into it do leave.
"Burdensomeness" is hard to measure especially since it depends on so many personality and societal factors. A chasid growing up in an insular chassidic community will most likely find his Judaism not burdensome at all. An intellectual Jew living in Russia might find it extremely burdensome. The same for other religions. And for religious newbies, different religions draw different kinds of people.
The point is that other religions were more "successful" (whether by force or persuasion) at convincing people to stay in the fold or for others to join, thus the numeric imbalance. Judaism did not light the world on fire. None of this, of course, has to do with "truth", although truth does have a way of being compelling.
"Judaism did not light the world on fire."
Sure it did, the Torah is the most influential book in history. Monotheism, altruism, the weekend and the alphabet all have been accepted by most of humanity.
"None of this, of course, has to do with "truth", although truth does have a way of being compelling."
I think reviewing history, we find that in regards to religion and politics the masses have almost always been wrong.
"The point is that other religions were more "successful" (whether by force or persuasion) at convincing people to stay in the fold"
By force they had greater success but not when it came to persuation. On the contrary Judaism could have become dominant in the Roman Empire if not for Christianity becoming the state religion. Islam by force stopped Arab tribes converting enmasse to Judaism and Christianity. But as for staying in the fold by peaceful means or in the face of death Judaism has had more success than many.
"or for others to join, thus the numeric imbalance. Judaism did not light the world on fire. None of this, of course, has to do with "truth", although truth does have a way of being compelling."
Judaism is not a missionary faith. That is why we lack the numbers from outsiders joining and we were killed and persecuted so we did not have the numbers from births. We did not fail the world. The world failed us and we suffered the loss of one out of every few Jews so we can hardly be blaimed for being small.
Christianity is funny. In a way, Catholicism is the equivalent of "Orthodox Judaism" catching on... the focus on ritual, the seriousness. So, I agree with RG that OJ has what it takes to become a major religion.
Same with Islam.
On the other hand, you have to admit that these focuses are exactly the opposite of what Jesus was going for, which is what caused the Reformation. Jesus preached a gospel of tolerance, of love triumphing over ritual, of forgiveness. Protestant Christianity is the product of that message, and it's been enormously successful. Some of that is because of missionary work, but I think some of it is because that message resonated.
Now, Jesus wasn't a perfect dude, and he had some hatred too, which found its way into the gospels just like our genocides found their way into the Chumash. But the overall message is one of love.
CandyMan,
In Mark 2: 27 there are some wise words, "The Sabbath was made for the man and not the man for the Sabbath"
I think that message would've done Judaism a lot of good. The mitzvos are for the betterment of mankind, not in some dictatorial fashion that makes it seem that the mitzvos are ends in themselves. They are but God given tools to give your life meaning, context and happiness. The inane halachos and chumros would have never had a chance with such an idea. The mitzvos that don't speak to us would have fallen by the wayside and finding out that they aren't indeed divine would have been far easier to swallow.
I understand that non-OJ forms of Judaism have adopted similar approaches. I think it was Mordechai Kaplan who famously said , "Halacha has a vote but not a veto."
FedUp,
"The Sabbath was made for the man and not the man for the Sabbath"
I think that message would've done Judaism a lot of good. The mitzvos are for the betterment of mankind, not in some dictatorial fashion that makes it seem that the mitzvos are ends in themselves. They are but God given tools to give your life meaning, context and happiness.
Good quote! I have heard that one before, but I like your take on it.
I like the gospels, or what little I've read of them. Knowing a little Torah helps put them in perspective. Many of Jesus' quotes are straight from the Hebrew Bible. There's a thread that runs through the thinking of Moses, Isaiah, Hillel, and Jesus.
I have read the gospels, many times, and I have a copy next to my desk now. The actual, historical Jesus seems to have been a megalomaniac who was simply an Orthodox Jew who tried to con other Orthodox Jews into believing that he was the Messiah – meaning divinely anointed but very much human king of Israel. He accomplished nothing, attracted almost no followers and was quickly killed. Nothing he taught was original. The most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe did much better comparatively.
If Jesus were to enter a modern, American evangelical church he would be totally mystified by what these gentiles are doing and he would surely denounce it as idolatry and just plain weird. Why services on Sunday but not Saturday, for example? These churches have basically taken the balanced, gourmet diet of Judaism and turned into spiritual fast food – satisfying, cheap, convenient, and not too healthy.
"The mitzvos are for the betterment of mankind, not in some dictatorial fashion that makes it seem that the mitzvos are ends in themselves."
Mitzvos have been considered withpout Jesus as beiung for the betterment of mankind.
"They are but God given tools to give your life meaning, context and happiness."
You put it in terms of the self. But then if we are just animals we need an excuse to center our lives around others as being the true goal.
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