Wednesday, July 30, 2008

Tevya, Torah, and Jewish Identity (Part I)

GUEST POST BY THE CANDYMAN

"Behold, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet... and he will return fathers' hearts to their children, and childrens' hearts to their fathers, lest I come and destroy the entire world." (Malachi 3:23-24)

My family is a big part of my life. I was raised an Orthodox Jew, and this is a big part of my family's identity. I rejected Orthodoxy for many reasons, but I did it quietly. I always tried to spare my family from the pain I was feeling, and from all of the things that bugged me about the religion. I never sent a big e-mail, saying, Hey, I'm not Orthodox anymore. Nevertheless, my family sensed that something had changed. As time went by, we occasionally argued about stuff, which maybe we should not have done, but we still got along pretty well. Even today, despite all of our differences, we all still love each other.

As everyone who reads this blog probably knows, my girlfriend (let's call her "H") is not Jewish. My family's reaction to my seriously dating her has been mixed. No one is thrilled. My father took it the hardest. When I first told him, he totally flipped out. "This is like a cancer," he said. "If you continue in this way, I will have to cut you off to protect the rest of the family." True to form, I haven't received an unsolicited phone call from my father for more than a year.

Nevertheless, my father and I get along when I do call him, every month or two. (In fact, I owe him a call.) And I am still welcome to visit my parents' house, and when I do my father and I get along as if nothing had happened. I live across the country, so unfortunately that opportunity doesn't arise very often.

My mother and siblings range in their feelings from "perpetually sad" (my Mom) to "concerned but rational" (my brother). Overall, it is not exactly the supportive reaction I would have liked to see, or even expected. Nevertheless, for a group to whom Orthodoxy is basically everything, they have shown some flexibility. A year and a half later, my mother--who is deeply grieved about the whole thing--occasionally asks me about my relationship. I have had some decent discussions with my brother about the possibility of a halakhic conversion. My sister even 'met' H on a videocall. Remember, these are Orthodox Jews -- I know that for them this takes a lot of effort, and I am thankful for that.

Right now my girlfriend and I are long-distance, and we are not engaged. There's no sense of urgency, which is probably a good thing. However, I worry about the time in the not-so-distant future when our lives will overlap more with my family's. My father has made clear that he wants nothing to do with my girlfriend, which will make it difficult to visit my parents. The rest of my family is caught between me and my dad.

(Abandoning Eden
is currently dealing with a similar crisis. Her parents refuse to have anything to do with her fiancee, B. Since she and B are joined at the hip, Eden's parents have effectively cut her off. She's not pleased about the situation, but she's done a wonderful job coping with her father's ultimatums.)

The one bright spot in all this is that it's helped me understand much better my family's ideas and positions. In arguments with my parents (which I had a lot of in the first year of the relationship, but thankfully not anymore), I began to understand that my rejection of Orthodoxy did not go unnoticed. Indeed, it caused a tremendous amount of pain to my parents, as well as my family.
From this standpoint, interreligious dating was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. So when I started dating H, a lot of crap we should have worked through years ago rose to the surface. Unfortunately, after years of bottling it up on both sides, it didn't work out very well.

Still, I understand my parents a lot better now. Orthodox Judaism, especially their own local community, lies at the very heart of their identities. To them, the idea of an intermarriage is a big slap in the face. There is a tremendous amount of shame they feel -- like they failed. This sense of shame is compounded by being in a very enmeshed community. It's all a little like Fiddler on the Roof. And like Tevya, my father feels that the proper response to an intermarried child is to sit shiva -- the traditional seven days of mourning for a loved one.

But
is that the proper response? After all, Tevya was not an educated man. To what extent should we base our actions on Fiddler on the Roof?

My father has never consulted with a rabbi about my actions, although I have suggested it many times.
I imagine the same is true of AE's parents. Certainly, this makes for great drama. But is it halakha?

Both my family and I have strong Jewish identities, but those identities have different roots. My own Jewish identity was forged in a crucible of influences. Some of these, such as the Bible and Mishna, are shared between me and my family. Others go much deeper -- an offhand comment that stuck in my mind for years, a good friend who showed me how to lighten up.
I suspect, in a Hume-ian fashion, that our morality, our political, religious, and ethical views, stem largely from our sense of identity. In a nutshell, your neighborhood has a tremendous impact on how you think and what you find acceptable. And identities are fluid. Change your neighborhood, change your identity.

What we call our Judaism is, in fact, a picking and choosing -- whether you are Orthodox or Reform, Humanist or a gastronomic Jew. What happens is, we gain a sense of identity, and use that as our lens through which we understand our "tradition." My family has one neighborhood, and I have another one. They don't get my Judaism, and to be honest with you, I don't get theirs. But our identities are also enmeshed with each other, because we're family.

Over the next few posts, I'll be telling my story. Sharing some of my own influences. Giving you a tour of my neighborhood. I'm not going to argue right or wrong here, I'm just going to share my POV. I'll go deep into some of those influences I talked about, and how they affect my own Jewish lens.

I know there are skeptics out there -- skeptics! -- who still don't feel comfortable with the idea of a Jewish/Christian intermarriage. Who still get a reflex twitch. And perhaps there are a few Orthos who read the blog and who are thinking to themselves, "Well, I'd never intermarry but it doesn't seem like such a terrible sin to me." I'm addressing you folks. I'm going to share my ideas with you, my Torah, and I hope you'll share yours back with me, as well as the personal experiences that shaped your own version of Judaism, your own Jewish identity.

Ultimately, will Judaism tear my family apart? I don't know. What I do know is that what changes our ideas, what changes our minds, is when we step outside our comfort zone and into the head and heart of another person, even for just a few seconds.
When we travel. When we share with each other. When we open our hearts. And it's a two-way street. I hope we can get a little of that going in this discussion. Sometimes when the books close, the learning begins.

48 comments:

Anonymous said...

Blimey, great post, thanks for sharing this painful subject of family relations, which I am well aware of. I cannot believe you only now realize how much pain is caused to parents and family by rejecting OJ. Its not a game, and expecting acceptance and understanding is naive if not selfish. Tevya is every OJ parent, farmer or physician.

I would put myself in the category of a skeptic, who still doesn't feel comfortable with the idea of intermarriage. I cant see how its not a spit in the face of Judaism and our families. An intermarriage is the end of the line, maybe not your generation but definitely future ones.

I look forward to your Part 2,to share perspective and reevaluate my understanding.

I think there are plenty of eligible Jewish women out there to choose from, and lchatchila, Jewish skeptics should date Jewish skeptics and avoid dating non-Jews.

jewish philosopher said...

In the Bible, this was never a problem. When Pinchas saw a Jewish guy with a gentile girl friend he just killed them.

In my blog, I recommend an intervention for cases like yours.

Please ask your parents to call me.

Baal Habos said...

JP, In the Bible, there was never a problem. Check out how many Gentile wives our illustrius Kings, such as Shlomo Hamelech, had.

e-kvetcher said...

Candyman,

In Tevye's world, you weren't just marrying a gentile, you were marrying the child of your persecutors.
Also, 99% of the time, you weren't marrying a gentile, but you were marrying a Christian, and I don't mean an enlightened, liberal Christian of the North American variety. So, the thought of your grandchildren viewing you as a Christ-killer naturally was pretty upsetting to most Jews.

In our society, outside of OJ, I find that intermarriage is definitely not stigmatized the way it used to be. Probably because there is so much of it, that every family has intermarried members.

Good post. Looking forward to the rest...

Lubab No More said...

I thought soul-baring was my shtick on the blog. ;)

In all seriousness that was a very touching post. I knew your Dad was pretty upset but I didn't know he was so hard-core. (Cancer? Seriously?!) You know my take on intermarriage (indifferent).

I'm looking forward to the follow up posts.

C. L. Hanson said...

Re: Orthodox Judaism, especially their own local community, lies at the very heart of their identities. To them, the idea of an intermarriage is a big slap in the face. There is a tremendous amount of shame they feel -- like they failed.

I completely relate to this. It's very similar in Mormonism: non-belief is seen as rejecting your traditions, your beliefs, and especially your family. You may be thinking that such a recent religion can't have anywhere near the same attachment to tradition and cultural identity, but you'd be surprised.

One difference is that there isn't a specific taboo on intermarriage. However, Mormons have a high degree of marrying within the faith, and there's a reason for it: The doctrine of "eternal families" is a key part of their beliefs, and (according to their doctrine) you can't have an eternal family unless your marriage is sealed in the Mormon temple -- which requires both the husband and wife to be faithful, practicing Mormons. For Mormons, whether your marriage is sealed in the temple or not is a very big deal, so marrying an atheist who was born Mormon is as bad as marrying someone from an entirely different tradition (since the atheist is considered unworthy to enter the temple). (I gather this is different from the Jewish tradition where marrying an atheist Jew is not nearly as bad as marrying a gentile.)

I've written a portrait of how discord between faithful parents and their non-believing adult offspring plays out in a Mormon context. It's the next segment I'll be posting from my novel: Temple Wedding.

Also, my latest post is all about the fact that non-belief shouldn't be equated with rejecting/hating your traditions and identity: It's fun to be an exmo!

jewish philosopher said...

Bos, is Candy's wife converting as the wives of Solomon did?

e-kvetcher said...

>Bos, is Candy's wife converting as the wives of Solomon did?

JP, do all new Jewish converts make their husbands worship idols, like Shlomo's wives did?

jewish philosopher said...

Depends on the girl.

SJ said...

read my blog. XD

Anonymous said...

"Baal Habos said...
JP, In the Bible, there was never a problem. Check out how many Gentile wives our illustrius Kings, such as Shlomo Hamelech, had."

Baal pagans adopted the religion of the land as shown by Ruth. She would not think of living in Israel and not adopting its faith. Orpah was about to take the step but didn't by returning home in Moav and so this was called by Naomi that she has returned to her people and god. True to form Solomon's wives were nort worshiping their gods and only were able to go back to worshiping their gods when Solomon was old. Solomon made religious buliding projects for his wives gods and in that way he served them too and got flack for it as helping make a pagan temple out of condoning worship of another god was worshiping the other god too whether or not you would do anything else for the god.

Anonymous said...

"(I gather this is different from the Jewish tradition where marrying an atheist Jew is not nearly as bad as marrying a gentile.)"

A Mormon isn't a member of a people called Mormons (despite them having their own state in the U.S., Utah). A Jew is a member of a people and a faith. The issue of intermarriage is more emotional. Jews accept converts and the convert is felt to be as if he is ethnically Jewish. By contrast a Jew who converts out despite being ethnically Jewish is felt to be on an emotinal level foriegn. There was a Zionist leader who because he wasn't religious said when heartbroken over his daughter's intermarriage that to the religious if you convert you are Jewish but to him even if you convert by countless rabbis you are still a Gentile.

Kid Charlemagne said...

I too, was in a similiar situation. when Noah Feldman's article appear around this time last summer, I thought I was the only graduate of a day school who married a Korean woman. my parents had difficulty with it and I was prepared to be cut off. that did not happen and life goes on.

as the saying goes:

got to keep on foot on the path,
'cause two feet would be no fun...

Freethinking Upstart said...

There has been a lot of talk on the blogs about intermarriage. I really hope I can find a Jewish girl. Not that I wouldn't marry a girl that wasn't Jewish, it just seems to make life SOOOO complicated.

Wishing the best of luck with your family.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The Candy Man said...

>nimrod,
I cannot believe you only now realize how much pain is caused to parents and family by rejecting OJ. Its not a game, and expecting acceptance and understanding is naive if not selfish.... I would put myself in the category of a skeptic, who still doesn't feel comfortable with the idea of intermarriage. I cant see how its not a spit in the face of Judaism and our families... I look forward to your Part 2,to share perspective and reevaluate my understanding.

Good comment, these are the kinds of issues I want to hash out. I don't have all the answers, and it's not about right or wrong. But maybe I can let you into my perspective.

>JP/BHB,
Pinchas, Shlomo, Ruth

I could write a megilla about intermarriage in OT times, and I'll touch a bit on it in the discussion. But I doubt any of us are seriously coming to our "religious" POVs from the Bible. Even you, JP -- Bible stories are not as relevant here as, say, the psychological impact your ex-wife's skepticism has had on your own philosophical viewpoint.

>kvetcher,
outside of OJ, I find that intermarriage is definitely not stigmatized the way it used to be.

That's been my experience as well. I'd like to delve into the logic behind this a bit in a later post.

>LNM,
You know my take on intermarriage (indifferent).

Thank the flying spaghetti monster! Actually, your support during this time has meant a lot to me (awww). You never judged our relationship, or my practices, even before you became a skeptic. It seems my friends are not as quick to grieve as my family.

>CL,
non-belief is seen as rejecting your traditions, your beliefs, and especially your family... For Mormons, whether your marriage is sealed in the temple or not is a very big deal, so marrying an atheist who was born Mormon is as bad as marrying someone from an entirely different tradition

Thanks for weighing in with your own experience here. I think these experiences are human, not specific to any particular culture or religion, but each culture finds its own expression of these conundra.

I've got to read your book! Congrats on finishing it. Yishar kochaich -- may your effort find its mark.

>Finally, kid charlemagne:
I thought I was the only graduate of a day school who married a Korean woman. my parents had difficulty with it and I was prepared to be cut off. that did not happen and life goes on.


I'd love to hear the whole story here. But I found the comment very reassuring. I think when your intentions are noble, people respect the choices you make.

Holy Hyrax said...

>outside of OJ, I find that intermarriage is definitely not stigmatized the way it used to be.

Probably depends where. In America I think most Jews see themselves first as Americans then Jews. They are very westernized. But in Israel, even amonsts most of the secular population it is looked down upon.

e-kvetcher said...

>Probably depends where. In America I think most Jews see themselves first as Americans then Jews. They are very westernized. But in Israel, even amonsts most of the secular population it is looked down upon.

I think this lines up with my statement. Who are the non-Jews in Israel. Most are probably Arabs - so that is difficult politically and socially. Then there are the migrant workers from Thailand, Philippines, etc... This probably has to do with social class - not a lot of mixing going on there.
Then there are the Russians. That's probably a mixed situation. Intermarriage between Russian Jews and ethnic Russians is probably not looked down upon too badly.

These of course are just conjectures - I don't have hard evidence to support it.

Miri said...

"Solomon made religious buliding projects for his wives gods and in that way he served them too and got flack for it as helping make a pagan temple out of condoning worship of another god was worshiping the other god too whether or not you would do anything else for the god."

Does anyone else find it interesting that Solomon, purportedly the wisest being who ever lived, at the end of his life was spending his time helping his wives worship avodah zarah? I know most OJs attribute it to senility, but I don't know.....

E-Kvetcher-
"I think this lines up with my statement. Who are the non-Jews in Israel. Most are probably Arabs - so that is difficult politically and socially. Then there are the migrant workers from Thailand, Philippines, etc... This probably has to do with social class - not a lot of mixing going on there.
Then there are the Russians. That's probably a mixed situation. Intermarriage between Russian Jews and ethnic Russians is probably not looked down upon too badly."

Stigmas aren't the issue with intermarriage in Israel - the law is. A Jew can't marry a non-Jew in this country bc all marriages and divorces go through the Rabbanut; who obviously don't approve of intermarriage. Halivai that stigmas should be their biggest concern.

e-kvetcher said...

>A Jew can't marry a non-Jew in this country bc all marriages and divorces go through the Rabbanut;

That's why God created Cyprus. And maybe Prague...

Holy Hyrax said...

>Intermarriage between Russian Jews and ethnic Russians is probably not looked down upon too badly.

Russians are very much looked down up in Israel by both the religious and secular. Many people question if they are Jews at all. They think that the majority are probably a bunch of "goys" that took advantage of some great grandfather being a Jew in order to come to Israel. Hell, even my Russian family thinks that since the large swarm of russians came to Israel, Israel took a turn for the worst.

So I still believe apart from social class, the majority in Israel prefer a Jew

e-kvetcher said...

>Russians are very much looked down up in Israel by both the religious and secular. Many people question if they are Jews at all.

Yeah, that's a whole other topic. But given the fact that between 1988 and 1995 alone, more than three quarter million Russians came to Israel through aliyah they are a force to be reckoned with.

Interestingly enough, the intermarriage rate is about 40 percent among the Russians, so that's not very different from the stats in the US.

So, imagine an American aliyah of this magnitude, where 750K American Jews decided to pick up and move to EY. There's be plenty of goyim among those families as well.

As far as 'taking a turn for the worst' - tough call. Much of the technical boom in Israel is backed by Russian brains. Along with the mafiosi and the pimps came the PhDs and the MDs and the engineers...

jewish philosopher said...

"JP, you degenerate, small-minded, petty, ignorant sack of monkey sh_t! How dare you suggest that someone be murdered! This is Torah? And, how can you claim to know the Torah, and compare the Pinchas incident with someone who is simply dating a non-Jew?!"

Very brave anonymous.

"Even you, JP -- Bible stories are not as relevant here as, say, the psychological impact your ex-wife's skepticism has had on your own philosophical viewpoint."

I wonder why you are so ashamed that you can't publish your identity. Must be something psychological.

Lubab No More said...

FYI, vulgarity based attacks have been, and will continue to be, deleted.

e-kvetcher said...

Are these 40% definetly non-jews? Are these Russian Jews marring non jewish russians, or, for example iraqi jews marrying non jewish russians?

And yes, I agree they are to be reckoned with. Not sure how. I don't think the answer is to condone intermarriage


Yes. Pretty much all of the non-jews are ethnic russians/ukrainians/etc. who were married prior to making aliyah.

The Candy Man said...

HH,
in Israel, even amonsts most of the secular population it is looked down upon.

I don't know the source of your data, but I lived in Israel for three years and can assure you that there are plenty of secular Israelis who don't judge a union based on its racial or religious purity.

Indeed, a little intermarriage with our Arab neighbors might create peace faster than any document could. When you've got one nephew in the IDF and one in Hizbollah, your perspective on the infinite value of warfare suddenly changes.

Think it's a dumb idea? That's *exactly* what the empires of old did. To make peace with a foreign country, simply intermarry your princes and princesses. That went on in Solomon's time through the Henry VIII. It's an old idea, and history suggests that it usually works pretty well.

The Candy Man said...

JP,

I wonder why you are so ashamed that you can't publish your identity. Must be something psychological.

I'm not ashamed of anything I've done. I'm proud of it. It hasn't been easy overcoming bigots and fools SAY, but I've done it 'cuz I knew I was in the right.

Just as you feel that Right is on your side, so too I know that you are actually the one who needs to be brought in and taught. I know you have suffered in your life, because I've suffered too. But you are on the internet because your heart is still open.

The Candy Man said...

Russians are very much looked down up in Israel by both the religious and secular.

De-lovely!

The Candy Man said...

Miri,

Does anyone else find it interesting that Solomon, purportedly the wisest being who ever lived, at the end of his life was spending his time helping his wives worship avodah zarah? I know most OJs attribute it to senility, but I don't know.....


I think I have finally been "yoraid l'sof da'ataich" -- I see what you're getting at. Solomon turned skeptic! Or at least, he realized that he should support his wives' religious beliefs, even though he didn't see eye to eye with them.

Wisdom indeed.

Holy Hyrax said...

>and can assure you that there are plenty of secular

I didn't say there aren't ANY. Of course there are. But I don't beleive its comparable to that of American Jews.

>Indeed, a little intermarriage with our Arab neighbors might create peace faster than any document could.

Sure, but for some of us, we ask "at what cost?" I know Judaism or Jewish continuity is not a value that we share (or, at least the way I define it), so I
would rather not get into it.

>Or at least, he realized that he should support his wives' religious beliefs, even though he didn't see eye to eye with them.

::snicker::

The Candy Man said...

HH,
>Indeed, a little intermarriage with our Arab neighbors might create peace faster than any document could.

Sure, but for some of us, we ask "at what cost?"... Jewish continuity


Perhaps you should ask yourself the same question. Your version of Jewish continuity is ruining my relationship with my father and destroying my Jewish family. Do you really believe that this is what Judaism is all about?

Holy Hyrax said...

>Do you really believe that this is what Judaism is all about?

Come on Candyman, you are so much smarter than this, so much. This is like those questions kids in highschool ask "does your mom know you are gay?" You a purposfly twisting the question around.

If there is even to BE a Judaism, like ANY social group, there will be parameters. You, using your own choices, have decided to go against those parameters, that even many secular wish not to cross. (I am not judging, simply stating the facts). And then you turn around and wonder why there were consequences in your relationship with your family that you caused

The Candy Man said...

If there is even to BE a Judaism, like ANY social group, there will be parameters. You, using your own choices, have decided to go against those parameters, that even many secular wish not to cross.

Please quote the halakhic source which suggests cutting off a son who intermarries.

Or is your source Fiddler on the Roof?

Holy Hyrax said...

Cutting of is different. We were never talking about cutting off. At least, that is not what i sensed from your comment about it destroying your family. From your post it sounded like your father, though threatening to cut you off completely, did not. It's very very strained, but it does not look cut off like the way I am used to invisioning it.

I don't think there is an halacha, though I can't be sure. I know personally, I don't think I can cut of a child, though, I know there would be a fall out. That seems to be what has happened to you.

Miri said...

Candy Man-
"Solomon turned skeptic! Or at least, he realized that he should support his wives' religious beliefs, even though he didn't see eye to eye with them.
"

Exactly! Or something like that anyway. They say that Shir HaShirim he wrote as a young man, Kohelet as a middle-aged man, and Mishlei when he was old. You ever read Mishlei? It's a pretty mellow book. I'm just saying.

jewish philosopher said...

"I'm not ashamed of anything I've done. I'm proud of it. It hasn't been easy overcoming bigots and fools SAY, but I've done it 'cuz I knew I was in the right."

So why the anonymity? Just shy?

Let's open up so I can help you.

Anonymous said...

My personal experience is that Israelis including my family are less concerned with intermarriage than Jews in the diaspora are. I think this is because it isn't a threat to their identity in the way it is outside of Israel. They don't feel they are in a community that is udner threat of assimilation. It's the reason that orthodox conversion is easier in Israel.

The Candy Man said...

@anonymous, kid charlemagne,

Thanks again for chiming in. I'd really like to hear more about how your interracial/interreligious marriages were received by your Orthodox families! Every family and story will be different, but I'll bet you've got some interesting stories. If you feel like telling a story at some point during this discussion, either comment with it or e-mail me with it.

The Candy Man said...

@JP,
So why the anonymity?

Want to know who I really am, JP?

Look in a mirror.

jewish philosopher said...

I looked. I don't see a sex crazed lunatic, so I guess it didn't work.

Miri said...

JP-
"I looked. I don't see a sex crazed lunatic, so I guess it didn't work."


Seriously? Come on.
Seriously?

How do you ever expect anyone to respect the things you say when you spout nonsense on the level of a fifth grader? Do you ever make statements based on any kind of rational thought process at all?

jewish philosopher said...

"Do you ever make statements based on any kind of rational thought process at all?"

Yeah.

jewish philosopher said...

I have proven today it's all about sex.

DrJ said...

Don't even bother reading JP's "proof".

Its just the same tired invalid ad hominem arguments. The Jewish skeptics are no different than any other skeptics, who finally realized that all the superstitious nonsense being fed to them by clergy is a bunch of hogwash. Calling them sex addicts, (besides being obnoxious) doesn't change the truth, which JP doesn't have much of a chance of seeing anyway. His ideas are no different than any other religious cult or sect anywhere in the world, whose adherents "know" that their religion is "the true religion".

Anonymous said...

JP is a troll. He's just trying to get your goat. If everyone just ignored him, he would eventually go away. That's what I tell my kids. It also works on the Internet.

The Candy Man said...

JP has built a large part of his life on the absolute truth of OJ. He has lost loved ones over it. I'm not surprised he feels compelled to defend himself against it as much as possible. We're attacking his very sense of identity.

But ultimately even he will have to face the truth.

jewish philosopher said...

"the candy man" [whoever that is] has built a large part of his life on denying the absolute truth of OJ. He has lost loved ones over it. I'm not surprised he feels compelled to defend himself against it as much as possible. We're attacking his very sense of identity.

But ultimately even he will have to face the truth.

The Candy Man said...

Like I said, JP. A mirror.