Sunday, August 31, 2008

Tevya, Torah, and Jewish Identity:
Part IV: Post-racial Judaism

"It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving."
-Commander William Adama, Battlestar Galactica (2008)
Last week, in the comments, drj made an interesting prediction:

The questions raised here go to the heart of the debate of whether Judaism is a religion or a nation (or both)... Personally I believe that Jews are primarily a nation, and Judaism is the remnant of their ancient faith. I think that Israelism/Zionism (for all its problems) is destined to replace what we know as Diaspora Judaism, which will most likely disappear in the future.

drj is looking ahead to the post absolute-truth world. Judaism and the Jewish race will merge with the greater human race. The only thing left of Judaism is Israel, defined not by religion but by nationhood. This concept of nationhood is something that comes up again and again. It is how my father, and many other Jews, see Judaism. They fear that intermarriage threatens the future of Jews as a distinct nation.

But what does nationhood really mean?

I worry that, for Jews, nationhood has become a euphemism for race. Sure, we Jews accept converts. On the other hand, most Jews don't proselytize, so ~98% of Jews are born into this "nation." And what does Jewish nationhood entail? Jewish rituals, Jewish foods, and of course fraternizing with and marrying other Jews. We don't want to call ourselves a race, so we call ourselves a nation. But if Jews are a nation, then it is not a nation like America. It's a nation like Iran, dominated by a common culture, race, religious tradition, language, and history.

Is that the Israel we want? Nationhood on its own is no more a purpose than race. And just like race, nationhood for its own sake can be counterproductive.

Modern Judaism encourages its young people to marry Jewish. Sure, you can make friends with non-Jews. You can even date them if you like. Just don't marry them. Shiksas, the old joke goes, are for practice.

This joke is no longer funny. In fact, it never was. The only reason the joke was ever acceptable is that it was made between Jewish buddies. The joke displays a lack of empathy - a failure by Jews to identify with other races and other peoples. It illustrates the dangers of a double standard that lets non-Jews into our living rooms, but not into our bedrooms.

This is not to say that all Jews are racists. My Modern Orthodox family is not racist. A little ethnocentrist, yes. But not racist. Ultimately, though, Judaism is more than just a nation. It's also a religious tradition. To me, the latter is actually more significant than the former (a radical statement, I know!). It means that we put forth a particular moral point of view to the world. And we are responsible for that point of view. Not being racist just isn't enough. Discrimination of any kind weakens our street cred.

I understand a point of view that, on halakhic grounds, opposes intermarriage. However, if you're going to adopt that point of view, you should consult with a rabbi and take a halakhic approach, as we discussed last time. And I think you have a responsibility to compensate, in one way or another, for the racial wedge you drive between Jews and everybody else. If you're sending your kids to an all-Jewish day school, you should encourage them to make friends with non-Jewish kids, as well (e.g. by having them join a childrens' orchestra).

Personally, I'm in the camp that considers interracial/religious dating and marriage a positive force, both for Judaism and for the world. The great unification that is going on, the reversal of the mythological dispersal from Babylon, is something we all should be celebrating. As races and peoples mix, the old divisions fall away. If you want to mow down anti-Semitism, this is the way to do it. I recently discussed my interracial dating with a friend in his fifties. "I think it's great," he told me. "I really think you kids are our best hope for peace."

I would like to see Judaism survive - I think we have something to offer the world. But on the other hand, if it can only survive by discrimination then maybe it's not worth saving.


The fictional Tevya's mantra is "TRADITION!" Tevya was always following tradition but never asking why. Today, the same kind of groupthink surrounds the topic of Jewish survival. "SURVIVAL!"

I can understand that Jewish survival has become a big deal. The Holocaust put it at the forefront of everybody's mind. In America, the threat to survival has been cast in terms of assimilation. Survival has become such a big deal to American Jewry that almost nobody asks what we're all surviving for.

In last week's comments, the Hedyot had an inspired response to JP along these lines:

JP: Any Jewish community where people feel free to marry gentiles will simply cease to exist.

Hedyot: This says more about the sorry state of OJ than anything else. You're acknowledging here that OJ does not have any staying power on its own and can only survive by forcing people to conform.

Hedyot is suggesting something radical: that Judaism could be so vibrant, so compelling, that it shouldn't need to force itself on anybody. It could attract people on its own.

Or as drj eloquently puts it:

There is now a free marketplace of ideas--competing faiths, science, philosophies, etc, in which people choose what they believe. You can't force a person into believing (other than total brainwashing in childhood) by any of your "techniques"... Orthodox Judaism simply fails to compete in the marketplace of ideas.

While drj singles out Orthodox Judaism, we might just as easily demand a compelling value proposition from any of the major Jewish denominations. I think this is a wonderful way to reframe the debate over Jewish survival.

Why be Jewish?
That's the question we should all be asking. Young Jews are hungry for a reason to stay Jewish. This is a new age. Young people have a lot of options, spiritually, politically, and in their careers. They also have a lot of friends, with very different upbringings, cultures, and faiths. This is a good thing, this is progress. But the age of absolute truth is over, there are new questions and the Jewish establishment has failed to answer them. The world is shrinking, and if Judaism is to survive, it will need to convince the generations to come that it is worthy of survival.

How do we do that?

You'd think that a lot of Jewish rabbis and authors would be addressing this question. But very few do. Either people don't feel comfortable asking Why Be Jewish, or people don't feel like it's an important question.

One person who did ask why was R. Meir Kahane. Twenty-five years ago, he wrote a book entitled "Why Be Jewish: Intermarriage, Assimilation, and Alienation (1983)." His basic premise is correct: denominational Judaism has failed to provide a compelling reason to be Jewish. But Kahane's alternative - right wing nationalist, Orthodox Judaism - has its own problems. Kahane fails to address the underlying reasons for Jewish Reform. In a post-enlightenment, globalized world, absolute truth and ethnocentrism are no longer compelling value propositions.

When I first noticed Getting Our Groove Back: How to Energize American Jewry (2006) by Scott Shay, I was excited. The title and reviews made it sound like this guy was really rethinking Judaism. But when I actually got the book in the mail, I was sorely disappointed. Far from rethinking Judaism, Scott Shay fails to even ask the question Why Be Jewish. Instead, he starts his first chapter by asserting once again that intermarriage is the major problem in American Jewish life. Shay advocates a harder line against intermarriage, more Jewish day schools, and an enhanced observance of halakha. Basically, his book is a polemic in favor of making Conservative Judaism more like Modern Orthodoxy.

The problem with this, again, is that ikaro chasar min hasefer - he's not addressing the main issue. The main issue is, Why Be Jewish? Shay's book assumes that Judaism is a positive force in the world. But he does not prove that this is true. And I don't see how endorsing racial/religious marital discrimination and segregated, religious-minded day schools possibly meets this criterion.

The best of the new books is R. Arthur Blecher's The New American Judaism: The Way Forward on Challenging Issues from Intermarriage to Jewish Identity (2007). Blecher takes aim at the very foundations of what he calls Denominational Judaism – the divisions of Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform which have been so contentious over the years. In a truly original work, Blecher argues that much of what we are taught as American Jews is simply not true. Contrary to popular belief, the Jewish population in America is steadily increasing. American celebration of Jewish culture is greater and higher-profile than ever before. The shtetl culture romanticized in Fiddler on the Roof is a fictional construct that does not accurately depict old-world Judaism. And intermarried couples, based on hundreds of interviews that Blecher has conducted personally, still raise their kids at least in part as Jews.

Blecher's book is required reading. But while he does a good job of debunking the myths, his book falls short of answering Why Be Jewish. In terms of Jewish survival, his approach is to stop blaming everything on intermarried couples and start proselytizing instead. But I think proselytizing without a compelling value proposition is a waste of time. Furthermore, the idea of trying to convince somebody to join your religion seems a little outdated. Beyond this, Blecher specifically avoids trying to "predict the future." I'm sure he's got ideas, though, and I look forward to hearing them in his next book.



Ultimately, there is no one-size-fits-all value proposition for Judaism. Why Be Jewish is a personal question. The correct answer, if there is one, is that Judaism is inside of you. If you were not born Jewish, perhaps something you were born with draws you to the religion or nation. If you have some Jewish heritage, perhaps something you were exposed to stuck.

It helps to know yourself. For me, it's not God, or Israel, or even Shabbat dinner that draws me to Judaism. It's the texts. Looking back, that's the only thing I've ever really connected to, the learning and the teaching. I like reading the thoughts of scholars 2,000 years old, putting myself in that world. I like discovering their secrets, and sharing them. Especially when they coincide, as they often do, with the values I cherish most: empathy, kindness, tolerance, open-mindedness, and reason.

Others will find their own Why Bes. The key to Jewish survival lies in our confidence in these Why Bes, and in our ability to create new ones, as we have for many years. This is our compelling value proposition. It's the only one we've got left, and the only one we've ever really had.

Is this picking and choosing? Absolutely YES! But the world is different today. People are not one thing or the other. And no one has time to be everything all at once.

If Judaism's going to survive, it has to look less like a trail of ancestors and more like a channel on Youtube. You go, you sample, you find what you like, maybe you become a subscriber. Maybe you just watch certain videos, maybe you leave a comment, maybe you post some videos of your own. The channel is open to the entire world, anyone who cares to tune in. Sure, there will be those who choose to tune out entirely. But there will also be those, like those Koreans studying Tanach at Hebrew U, who feel inexplicably drawn to some piece of Judaism.

There is hope for post-racial Judaism within this model. Not by proselytizing, as Blecher suggests, but rather by encouraging everyone to explore Judaism and find the parts within it that appeal to him or her. Hillel, the Jewish college organization, stresses Jewish "ownership" - helping students feel connected, committed, and in control of their Jewishness. The beauty of post-racial Judaism is that it broadens the ownership of Judaism exponentially in the larger population of the world. This does more than simply mow down the weeds of anti-Semitism. It raises the question of "Why Be Jewish" to the entire world.

Mixed-race kids are a good example. Blecher reports that a clear trend has emerged among intermarried couples (who, by the way, tend to be Jewish-Catholic): they raise their children with dual identities. This would seem on the surface to be a contradiction: how can a family light a Hannuka Menorah with a Christmas tree in the background? And yet, all Americans already have dual identities. We have our ethnic identities, and our common identity as Americans. Most of us do not feel a conflict between our two identities. We feel inspired lighting a Menorah, and we well up with pride at the national anthem. The children of mixed parentage might feel the same kind of pride when lighting a Menorah or lighting a Christmas tree. There is no contradiction in them, because they carry both traditions within them, in one body.

This is what the Torah means when it says, This is why a man leaves his father and mother, and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh.(Gen. 2:24) A child is the flesh-and-blood embodiment of the marital ideal: a perfect union, two individuals within one body, indivisible, without contradiction.

Racial purists complain about ethnic and cultural "dilution." But in the context of mixed race, dilution is the wrong word. It's more like expansion. We all have dual identities, American and Jewish. We do not sit around and question whether these two identities can live together in the same body, or the same mind. We feel no contradiction. Is it really such a stretch to imagine that a child of two different traditions can feel both of her identities just as strongly as we feel ours?

It is to American Judaism’s great shame that we have, as a nation, ostracized and cast out our brothers in faith, the Jews for Jesus. They are the greatest oppressed minority in the Jewish community. They consider themselves Jews, but every major Jewish denomination rejects their Jewishness. Jewish communities and organizations try to pretend they don’t exist. They are denigrated in public opinion columns in Jewish newspapers without a chance to respond. We are quick to label them deceptive, ingenuine, even creepy - unwittingly taking the age-old weapons of anti-Semites into our own hands. And for what? For making the unimaginable leap of faith that maybe, just maybe, the most influential Jew in history was the moshiach. The larger Jewish community, so complacent in its own Jewishness, has forgotten itself. Messianic Jews are caught in a web, no different from the rest of us. In an age when so many Jews have dual identities as Christians, it is embarrassingly backwards to punish the one group which bridges the gap.


Unlike drj, I do not think diaspora Judaism is going to disappear. It's changing, but it's not going away. And that's a good thing. Because we need Jews to be living with other peoples, sharing their culture, and embracing their dual identities.

Coexistence is the one arena left in which America truly leads the rest of the world. For is this not America's greatest strength? We are a nation of many different peoples, who live together in peace. All those other nations, the ones based on race and identity and geographic history, still have a huge hurdle ahead of them. They will have to deal with the racial incongruity that is inherent in their society. Now, this country isn't perfect, but for the most part we've already been there, done that. We have wrestled with the angels of ethnic strife, and we have emerged one nation. We are living, breathing proof that human society can transcend the identity barriers of common culture and common skin tone. And I'm proud to be an American. We still have a ways to go - the gears of democracy grind slowly, and many gay couples are being denied the right to a civil union, much less marriage. But we are on the right path.

As diaspora Jews, our role is different from Israelis. Our role is to be part of the great unification, to lend our unique voice and unique perspective to America and the world. And we are the ones who must ask, Why Be Jewish? We are the ones who choose to stay Jewish even though they don't have to. We are the litmus test for Jewish meaning. It's time we took some pride in that. I think if we lose diaspora Judaism, then we have lost the heart of the nation.

Will the Jewish face of tomorrow look different? Absolutely. But if Judaism can appeal, if it can compete, then it can survive and thrive anywhere on earth.

In closing, I'd like to outline a series of steps we can take to help Judaism stay meaningful, and survive, in a post-racial world.

1. Present a unified front. Denominational Judaism has become a liability. In a shrinking world, Jews cannot afford to so divided. The time has come for a post-denominational Judaism, in which all Jews are united under one banner and one council. This is not to say that our individual beliefs or practices should be cast aside. There isn’t one single way to be Jewish. There’s a spectrum within our religion, race, nation, or whatever you want to call it, and that's a good thing. Our job is to embrace this spectrum without letting it divide us. When our differences come up, as they inevitably will, we must work together to find solutions, in the spirit of Hillel and Shammai (Mishna Y'vamot 1:4).

For instance, there is a current stalemate between Reform, which recognizes patrilineal descent, and the other branches of Judaism, which do not. It may well be that this type of issue cannot be resolved halakhically one way or the other. But we can do more – much more – to prevent this difference of opinion from causing a split within our nation. Those movements which disagree with Reform might well acknowledge that, while they may consider half-Jews to be non-Jews for halakhic purposes, they are still affiliated with the Jewish community. As such, they must be considered krovay Yisrael - friends of Israel. (Conservative rabbis have recently pushed for a similar categorization of intermarried spouses who choose not to become Jews.) This is just one example.

2. Promote mobility, flexibility, and tolerance within the Jewish ranks. This goes hand-in-hand with unity. Children should be encouraged to experiment within the spectrum of Judaism, and beyond. Utimately, a child may find that Judaism is not for her. This is not a travesty. It is a person finding herself. But if we do it right, if we reaffirm her self-worth and make her feel comfortable being herself, then at least she will feel positively inclined towards the Jewish people. And who knows? She may decide, later on in life, to reexamine her tradition. Or she might have kids, krovay Yisrael, that do.

3. Stop competing, and start including.
This is an age in which unqualified statements of absolute truth, such as Reform's principle of monotheism, are a turn-off. Many Jews are atheists and their ranks are growing. In the free marketplace of ideas, it behooves us not to force a choice on our practitioners between Judaism and every other philosophy in the world. This is especially true when many people are being born to intermarried couples. There's no reason, in an age of pluralism, why a couple or a child should have to be only Jewish and nothing else. If we are worried about survival, we need every half-Jew we can get.

Nor is it realistic to expect everyone to be all Jewish all the time. Different people will choose to carry different parts of the load. What we should think about is how to unify and organize these different brushstrokes into a beautiful painting the whole world can enjoy.

4. Grow Judaism.
Jews have been adding to the tradition, and focusing on different parts of it, since our nation got going. In order to survive, Judaism has had to burn itself down and rise from the ashes. Sometimes, I think we're saddled with our tradition. But if it's no longer relevant, then we have to look elsewhere for inspiration. We have to grow Judaism.

Reform has done a good job in the last generation of bringing back the concept of tikkun olam/social justice. This has attracted many Jews to the cause and given their Judaism meaning. As Jews, everything we do is Jewish - everything we do has significance. You are no less a Jew than Moses himself, and your Torah is just as real. If you have a passion, follow it and make it a piece of Jewish culture.

5. Use the State of Israel as an organizing principle. Israel has tremendous potential to bring Jews together and give them a focal point. In an age of globalization, that is an important resource and organizing principle.

I am proposing a shift in Jewish perspective, from exclusive to inclusive, from looking in to looking out. From this point of view, Judaism is more than a race, religion, or nation. It’s what you might consider a global resource. And if Judaism is a global resource, then maybe Israel can be a global park – a place where people of all backgrounds and all races can come together to see the different sides of Judaism, and how Jews live together in peace with each other and the rest of the world.

Israel should be like Italy – a place where people can go and feel immersed in a different culture, a culture with many different sides but proud of all of them. I think this is missing in the Israel of today. The old, reigning culture of Zionism and kibbutzim is passe, and instead we've got an argumentative culture of contradiction. I see no reason why the artsy, hippy culture of Haifa cannot live in unison with the millenia-old ritual of lighting candles Friday night. Israel is the face of Judaism to Jews and non-Jews around the world. A trip to Israel should be a little taste of the Jewish nation, the very best we have to offer in a single, focused flight. To really pull this off will take an effort from both the Israeli people and the Israeli government.

Nothing would do more for Israel than an alliance with our Semitic cousins, the Arab peoples. I'm proud of Israel, but the country's inability to make peace is a turn-off. We share Abrahamic blood with the Arabs, and we share an Abrahamic religious heritage. It's time to start playing that up. Imagine the impact on the West if tourists could embark on a safe, united journey across Israel and Jordan, or Israel and Palestine, without it seeming like the countries didn’t know the other existed. Imagine if their guides for the trip, one Arab and one Israeli, showed friendship, cooperation, and camaraderie. People will leave that trip refreshed, hopeful for the prospect of world peace, and more favorably inclined towards all the Semitic peoples.


The media likes to tout Barack Obama as African American, but the Democratic Presidential Nominee also identifies as biracial. Obama, more than any other politician, stresses the importance of national unity and finding common ground. He said last week,
We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country... don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals. I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in the hospital and to live lives free of discrimination... This too is part of America's promise - the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.
There is no doubt in my mind that Obama's mature perspective on American politics stems in part from his biracial identity. As a biracial child, Obama never felt the contradiction. And he doesn't feel it in our country, either. Sure, we disagree. But we agree more.

Obama's political philosophy in a nutshell? E Pluribus Unum. From many, one.

Obama has learned from Martin Luther King, but he is not trying to be him. He knows that this generation faces a different challenge. It's the challenge of how to learn from the past, without living in it. The challenge of how to embrace and celebrate our individuality, without sacrificing a single drop of our common humanity. The challenge of keeping one foot in the past, one foot in the present, and both eyes on the future. As Jews in a shrinking world, perhaps this is our challenge as well.

Jewish Americans for Obama
Yes We CandyMan Can

(I will wrap this series up next post, in which I'll explore the personal experiences, as a single man, which led to my warped perspective.)

52 comments:

DrJ said...

An interesting and thoughtful post, Candyman. And I actually hope that you're correct and I'm wrong about the future of diaspora Judaism. It just seems to me that your prescriptions, while in theory are on target, require a strong, centralized and charismatic Jewish leadership which simply does not exist. Nor does it seem likely to appear in the foreseeable future. So Judaism will continue to evolve and become deluted naturally, as a result of the forces acting upon it.

The orthodox community is as divided as ever, and can't agree on even the most basic questions like what they're allowed to eat. There is more cooperation between Conservative and Reform, but Jews by nature are contentious, independent minded, and not accepting of authority.

While the prospects for Judaism are better in Israel, Israeli society as a whole has many problems to work through, and these solutions will go hand in hand with Israel's Jewish nature.

As far as why be Jewish, I'm rather Darwinian about it. Its a group thing, not necessarily race. Why be Chinese? If you're already Chinese, there may be some good reasons. But if you're not, there really isn't any reason. Same with Jews. This is kind of a sad truth, borne of skepticism, but the main reason for me to be Jewish is, because that's who I am. The other stuff, like the ethical and social reasons, that's cream. But that's sufficient for me.

Orthoprax said...

"If Judaism's going to survive, it has to look less like a trail of ancestors and more like a channel on Youtube."

In order to have a channel you still need someone to be producing the content - that would be the Jewish people. If there aren't people living by the words of these texts then who's going to find interest in a bunch of dusty old tomes?

Your ideas are without merit and would turn the Gemara into something as relevant as the Book of the Dead.

The Candy Man said...

It just seems to me that your prescriptions, while in theory are on target, require a strong, centralized and charismatic Jewish leadership which simply does not exist. Nor does it seem likely to appear in the foreseeable future. So Judaism will continue to evolve and become deluted naturally, as a result of the forces acting upon it.

Hey, don't look at me. I'm a molecular biologist. This is a job for rabbis.

In order to have a channel you still need someone to be producing the content - that would be the Jewish people. If there aren't people living by the words of these texts then who's going to find interest in a bunch of dusty old tomes?

Me, for one. I've always found the texts more interesting than the actual rituals.

But hey, if you like shaking a lulav, that's fine too. You can make a decent Youtube video out of that.

Orthoprax said...

CM,

"Me, for one. I've always found the texts more interesting than the actual rituals."

That's fine. But without the rituals why would you have come to the texts in the first place?

mOOm said...

These are only questions that diaspora communities ask. No people in their own country asks "Why be Chinese?" or "Why be English?" or "Why be French?". And Israelis don't really ask this question though some are likely to ask "Why live in Israel?" due to the ongoing conflict etc... Immigrant communities of all sorts are going to ask whether preserving the tradition and ethnic heritage is worthwhile. And the more different they are from the host community the more likely they'll ask I think especially if they are not racially that different from the majority in their country. So this is a natural question in Jewish communities outside of Israel. OTOH I think the Orthodox community and especially the Ba'al Teshuva movement are really trying to answer that question. They persuade some to join. Must be persuasive to them. Including your own parents who became Orthodox and my mother who converted to (Orthodox) Judaism.

My wife is Chinese - born in the PRC - I don't think though she asks "Why be Chinese?". She is proud of China - like how many gold medals they won at the Olympics, one by one. She just prefers to live outside China at the moment. The communities that have been longer outside China seem more concerned with maintaining Chinese identity. From the PRC perspective there is no threat to Chinese identity in intermarriage etc.

Personally, I don't really have a strong single ethnic identity, though being Jewish is by far the strongest. I was born in Britain, my father German-Jewish my mother an Anglo-Irish Australian convert and I've lived in the UK, Israel, the US, and Australia. I do feel proud of Australia to some degree as it has some worthy characteristics. I'm not proud of Britain. I felt we were immigrant minority outsiders there to a large degree. Especially, being Orthodox Jews. The US made it hard to become an immigrant. I also identify with Israel of course. Though I don't really feel "proud" of it...

DrJ said...

Moon said:
" I also identify with Israel of course. Though I don't really feel "proud" of it..."

I'm a little off topic here...A brief political polemic:

Right now I agree with you on that one, I'm not feeling particularly proud of Israel at the moment either. This may be for different reasons than yours. But overall I identify with being Jewish and being Israeli almost equally.

Although my natural instincts are left of center politically, as part of a threatened group I revert to "tribal" survival instincts and have adopted a right wing narrative about the conflict here in Israel. While I favor a compromise with the Palestinians I don't think that they really do, and therefore we can only hope to "manage" the conflict from a position of strength.
In contrast, the secular-left in Israel is more or less disconnected from its Jewish roots and has adopted a post-Zionist, post-modern approach, which might be appropriate if Israel were in Scandinavia but not in the Middle East.
This post-Zionist left pretty much dominates the political elite in Israel now, so rather than Israel projecting pride, strength and a strong moral compass, it projects weakness, guilt, and moral equivocation.
This does not make me proud of Israel.

Lubab No More said...

> Why be Jewish?

I think the key is to shift focus. Orthodoxy and halacha put significant emphasis on biology (obviously). I think the shift should be toward ideology. Jewish values (tzedakah, love for ones fellow, etc.) should make one Jewish (if not literally Jew-ish). I would be proud to be a part of a movement so labeled.

mOOm said...

DrJ : Politically I'm centre-right - a classical liberal/libertarian... I mostly agree with what you wrote. I think Israel needs to be pragmatic. I think they could be more generous in the day-to-day give and take and tough on strategy. At the moment they seem neither. Olmert, Peres etc. are the least inspiring bunch one could imagine. Israel is a tragedy... Most people on either side are not so extreme. The question is how to get out of the bad equilibrium we are in to the candyman type utopia.

The Candy Man said...

drj,
Why be Chinese? If you're already Chinese, there may be some good reasons. But if you're not, there really isn't any reason. Same with Jews. This is kind of a sad truth, borne of skepticism, but the main reason for me to be Jewish is, because that's who I am.

This is a sad truth! I think racial/ethnic heritage is a "minimum common denominator" sort of reason to be Jewish.

moom,
These are only questions that diaspora communities ask. No people in their own country asks "Why be Chinese?"

Agreed. I guess the thing is that Judaism demands a lot from its people. We're expected to marry Jewish, especially. Perhaps the trick to making Judaism viable is to stop stressing Jewish responsibility and grow the "fun" parts of Judaism instead.

LNM/OP,
"Jewish values (tzedakah, love for ones fellow, etc.) should make one Jewish (if not literally Jew-ish). I would be proud to be a part of a movement so labeled."

Yeah, it already exists. It's called Christianity. They thought up the "spiritual Israel" thing almost since it started.


I wish this were true, but Christianity (like Judaism) has long since forgotten those roots.

I think LNM's idea is rather novel: define a Jew not by who is parents were, but by the type of person who s/he is. Or better yet, redefine Judaism as an early form of humanism.

DrJ said...

Humanistic Judaism as a movement has alot of appeal, at least for me. But like with other liberal Jewish movements, I would be concerned about its ability to maintain itself. Humamist Jews should not be opposed to intermarriage, so what happens in the long term? How do they transmit their Judaism?

Lubab No More said...

OP,

> It's called Christianity. They thought up the "spiritual Israel" thing almost since it started.

You misunderstand. Christianity has almost no resemblance to what I've described. TCM and drj accurately understand I am promoting a form of humanism rooted in Jewish values. Reform Judaism is similar to what I have in mind.

Kid Charlemagne said...

very enjoyable post. I once had the religion vs nation discussion with my brother. we reach the following conclusion. if we are Jews then we all should move to Israel. otherwise we are just Hebrew Nationals.

wikipedia defines Jews as a ethnoreligious group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious

I reached a conclusion for myself . the mitzvot govern all aspects of daily life. if one can develop the mindfulness and awareness of keeping the mitzvot, then so too, one should be mindful and aware of your behavior and actions towards those around you....

beside if I did not marry into a Korean family, I would have never known how good potato pancakes really can be.

and the best part is my brother in law dubbed me "a honorary ornamental" 'cause he never saw a non asian eat so much rice...

Orthoprax said...

LNM,

"You misunderstand. Christianity has almost no resemblance to what I've described. TCM and drj accurately understand I am promoting a form of humanism rooted in Jewish values. Reform Judaism is similar to what I have in mind."

I didn't misunderstand, I was making the point that your 'redefinition' of Judaism to mean Humanism is about the same as Christianity adopting the concept of a 'spiritual Israel.' Let's do something completely different and just call it Jewish.

The Candy Man said...

kc,
beside if I did not marry into a Korean family, I would have never known how good potato pancakes really can be.

Yes - they are masters at those! They mix in the kimchi.

Sounds like your Korean in-laws were cool about the whole thing... are they actually in Korea? I hear the Koreans in Korea are pretty opposed to "intermarriage" with Westerners!

The Candy Man said...

Humamist Jews should not be opposed to intermarriage, so what happens in the long term? How do they transmit their Judaism?

I think one of the pitfalls here is getting caught up in the idea that there's a particular "right" way to be Jewish. That's what holds us back. The first step is to unite as a race/people/nation/whatever.

As for transmission, I think the key is to open up Judaism to the rest of the world, and let different people carry different parts of the load. And make it more fun!

Kid Charlemagne said...

CM,

"Yes - they are masters at those! They mix in the kimchi"

no, those are kimchi pancakes, rather my mother-in-law begins with a mixture of chopped up potatoes and onions. she puts in the pan and then lays down a fresh leaf of basil and puts more on top to seal the basel in. then you eat with soy sauce(soy sauce, vinegar and sesame seeds). it is delicious. my wife makes different variations. the last time it included jalapenos, carrots, zucchini.


"Sounds like your Korean in-laws were cool about the whole thing... are they actually in Korea? I hear the Koreans in Korea are pretty opposed to "intermarriage" with Westerners!"

I never met my father-in-law for he passed away years before. my mother-in-law was fine about. when I traveled to Korea just before the wedding, I had a great time with the family. could not speak the language but I knew how to play cards and drink, so everything was swell.

it was my parents that had a hard time in the beginning

Kid Charlemagne said...

CM,

p.s. I sent a email to address on this blog for LNM to forward to you...

L

Lubab No More said...

OP,

> I was making the point that your 'redefinition' of Judaism to mean Humanism is about the same as Christianity adopting the concept of a 'spiritual Israel.'

If you say so I'll take your word for it.


> Let's do something completely different and just call it Jewish.

The whole point is that it isn't philosophically different. The Jewish humanistic values (the philosophy) are kept and made the focus while the rituals are left behind. The whole point is that it is rooted in Judaism.

Why are you so intent on attacking this idea? I don't get it.

jewish philosopher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Orthoprax said...

LNM,

"Why are you so intent on attacking this idea? I don't get it."

If everybody is "Jewish" then nobody is Jewish. The rituals are what define what's unique about the Jewish way of life and if your tepid view of 'Judaism' was widely adopted then Judaism as a real entity in the world is finished.

Lubab No More said...

OP,

> If everybody is "Jewish" then nobody is Jewish. The rituals are what define what's unique about the Jewish way of life and if your tepid view of 'Judaism' was widely adopted then Judaism as a real entity in the world is finished.

Huh. By your logic democracy is only unique if it exists in it's original form. Do you suppose that if democracy is widely accepted or interpreted then it is finished as well?

I think your fear is for orthodoxy. What you seem to ignore is that Judaism has flourished OUTSIDE of orthodoxy. The frum love to complain that Judaism is in danger of disappearing but the truth is just the opposite. Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Secular Israeli life are some of the main forms of modern Judaism which have continued the tradition of our people. Jewish rituals and the answer to "what is Jewish" have been in flux for millennia.

As far as orthodoxy, don't worry. Judaism has (and will continue to) get along just fine without it.

Orthoprax said...

LNM,

"Huh. By your logic democracy is only unique if it exists in it's original form. Do you suppose that if democracy is widely accepted or interpreted then it is finished as well?"

No, your analogy is dumb. It's more like let's define 'Italian' as liking to eat pizza. So now if almost everybody is Italian, what does it mean to be Italian? Next to nothing.

"The frum love to complain that Judaism is in danger of disappearing but the truth is just the opposite. Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Secular Israeli life are some of the main forms of modern Judaism which have continued the tradition of our people."

No, they really haven't. Reform and Conservative Judaism have largely failed to retain people in the Jewish fold after a couple of generations. Intermarriage is rampant, ignorance of Judaism is huge and the practical day to day life as a Jew, I'm sorry to say, barely exists in those movements.

Israeli culture may have a chance, but given the self-destructive, post-Zionistic views so popular among the secularists I'm not so prepared to throw the dice with them as opposed to working with the Jewish standand that's proven itself for thousdands of years.

-suitepotato- said...

Where do I begin?

Well first, good post. I liked the attempt at hopefulness if not the Quixotic aspect of it all, but few good things happen easily or by accident short of maybe children.

Second, jumping to the race thing JP brings up... what can be usefully called race as an intermediate assignment of classification in a hierarchy of classifications would be what you get when people with similar affectations, allegiances, pasttimes, religious belief, cultural aspects, etc. insist on marrying each other whenever possible. Also, you get nations but those have a geographic aspect more often, although a floating nation is also possible and Judaism managed to hold aspects of multiple classifications for centuries without ill effect in and of themselves (other tragedies were for other reasons, not the tendency to be insular which if it is grounds among humans for harassment and violence, well, might as well exterminate all mankind because mankind as a whole is composed of hundreds of thousand of insular groups. It's almost an obsession of humans to belong yet be different.)

Third, atheism has no place in Judaism. Sorry. The entire concept of G-d just as a social and cultural function is as central to it as Christianity and Islam. Even Buddhists and Hindus have, albeit a hazy indistinct one, a concept of a supreme being or state of being. This is a tendency inherent to humans and serves a vital purpose. Humanism ultimately has nothing to answer to beyond whichever humans are in power and able to impose their definitions on other humans.

Agnosticism is redundant since faith is a choice independent of proof and rationale and reason, just a choice, and knowing that G-d exists is never a part of it. You simply choose to believe. Knowing not being relevant, the fact that you don't know is assumed a priori. Hence, redundant.

Marrying within a group is always a tendency of humans. Marry someone geographically close. Marry someone socially close. Marry someone going to the same church or synagogue. It's a common feature of humans. It's how they have "racial groups" and nations and countries and so forth. And if they can't get someone in their own group, they sometimes conquer and absorb like Borg.

Should it become obsessive? No. Partly for the same reasons against inbreeding laid out for example by generations of people making fun of the deep south or Eddie Izzard's bit on English royalty. Partly for the functional reason that you close yourself off to useful admixtures that add strength to you. Mostly for the fact that another aspect of humans is that what they take for normal in their own they distrust and find creepy in others.

Marrying other Christians just makes sense. Jews marrying only other Jews seems suspicious and unfriendly. To Christians. To Jews, just the opposite, although the obsession component (not to mention the oppression component) has largely meant a lack of caring about who or what Christians marry as long as they leave Jews the heck alone.

I should also mention that most of humanism/atheism is hypocritical bunk and naive self-deception. I know, I was steeped in it part and parcel of futurism in the 70s and 80s growing up. It always devolves into who has power. Like Obama's idea that if only he was president he could change what others couldn't, namely dependence on foreign oil. It's only the lack of power to force his genius on others that he lacks. Which is a plaintive admission of lack of intellectual power to convince others of their own free will. It is also the most common of would-be miracle workers, especially the big hopes and dreams short on details types.

It is about arrogance to say the things that he and people like him do and everyone does it. It's just that because we don't want to admit it about ourselves when we have those "if only I was in charge" thoughts that we let everyone from Hitler to Clinton tell us how they can save us all and make everything perfect and kittens fluffier and towels smelling fresher if we just hand power over to them. Well, it doesn't work that way, those who do get the power prove it constantly, and we keep on not getting the object lesson that humility involves not just acting humble but internalizing the concept that while we are not worthless, neither are we perfect and infallible and power alone is not the thing we lack but wisdom and that is more frequently learned by working WITH other people than shoving our ideas down their throats using power.

Should Judaism enshrine arrogant save the world ideas? No. Why? Because the key to bringing about moshiach is now and always has been each doing our part to make the world such that as if it was already redeemed by moshiach thus making moshiach irrelevant. Like the song by Stabbing Westward goes, and I imagine G-d saying it sometimes, "save yourself!"

We should enshrine mutual goodness and decency, not ideas about saving people from something or other. Those always devolve to power contests. Whose cause gets to be followed, whose cause gets what importance and priority and resources at the very least. That's not what being good people is about. Being good people is about doing right, not being right. Do right at all times and everything else should more or less work out fine.

And who tells you what is right? That belief that there is some other power outside yourself, whether you name it G-d or nameless fear or conscience. If it is about who is right instead, it's about what rules whoever is in power writes. Follow every one perfectly and you're good by their yardstick but you can still be a total putz.

It's possible to follow all the rules and still be a schmuck. Legalism. Formalism. Rote ritualism. The kind of thing being decried in Judaism among skeptidox bloggers right now.

If the basic premises from which all others flow and which govern all eventualities are irrelevant and it is only about rules, then Judaism is bound to fail, whether it is religious formalism or humanistic causes or political consciousness. There are central ideals at work within it that the vast majority have in common. If they started with those things first and built on the commonalities they share, denominationalism and so on which you wish gone would naturally die away into the sort of all together but practicing whatever separately notion you effectively conveyed.

Commonality not diversity. And yet it is the drive for commonality that is behind decrying intermarriage, and behind nation building, racial group formation, etc., etc., etc.

We are a species of contradictions, no matter what our nation, race, or creed.

I could go on nearly forever with what I've observed of human behavior and all the mutually contradictory motivations for their scattered actions and how they apply to your post, but you get the point. Simply worry less about the big picture and "if only" ideas, and worry more about being the best you that you can be and lead by that example always, being the best you to everyone always.

Those best teachers we love so much and so frequently usually hold themselves to the highest standards and those around them to lesser and do not look askance at them for not holding themselves the same, but merely encouraging to try. The Baal Shem Tov, Jesus, Buddha, etc.

Normal everyday "leaders" like to engage in hypocrisy, hold themselves to purely convenient and conditional standards while holding everyone around them to much higher requirements. Insert every politician ever here.

Which do you prefer more? Live as you most admire and best befits you and your beliefs and definitions of what is good and best and leave it at that, with FAITH that this being believed the best that it actually is the best and will result inevitably in the best.

Lubab No More said...

OP,

> No, your analogy is dumb. It's more like let's define 'Italian' as liking to eat pizza. So now if almost everybody is Italian, what does it mean to be Italian? Next to nothing.

Once again you miss the point. (Either that or you are so bent on disagreeing that you are unwilling to consider it). Democracy is a philosophical approach to government. The form of Judaism I suggested (and which you reflexively reject) is a philosophical approach to Judaism. Conversely, your suggestion of "eating pizza" is a ritual approach (for lack of a better category) to being Italian. Your argument doesn't work.


> Reform and Conservative Judaism have largely failed to retain people in the Jewish fold after a couple of generations. Intermarriage is rampant, ignorance of Judaism is huge and the practical day to day life as a Jew, I'm sorry to say, barely exists in those movements.

So says you and my 5th grade rebbe. I have yet to see any data that supports this claim. (If you have it I would like to see it). In my discussions with Reform Jews I get the impression that retention isn't an issue of the sort that self-righteous Orthodox Rabbis make it out to be.

As for intermarriage, and day-to-day life as a Jew, the Reform approach is a problem for (again) Orthodox people. If your qualifications for converts are different than you may or may not see this as an issue. If being a day-to-day Jew means wearing tzitzit then most Reform Jews don't meet that definition. For a Reform person being a day-to-day Jew may mean not cheating on your taxes because it is a Jewish value. But again, you are have only reinforced that you are missing my point. Judaism could be about philosophy (not cheating on taxes) as opposed to being about ritual (tzitzit).


> ...I'm not so prepared to throw the dice with them as opposed to working with the Jewish standand that's proven itself for thousdands of years.

Orthodoxy is a small percentage of the Jewish people. Yes, it seemed to work for thousands of years... until violent antisemitism and flexibility within halacha were removed (more or less). People have been fleeing the so called "Jewish standard" for over a century. Modern medicine has done more for growing the Orthodox community than any other factor. In the modern world the key to keeping orthodoxy alive is their birth rate not their "engaging" form of religion.

Orthoprax said...

LNM,

"The form of Judaism I suggested (and which you reflexively reject) is a philosophical approach to Judaism. Conversely, your suggestion of "eating pizza" is a ritual approach (for lack of a better category) to being Italian. Your argument doesn't work."

No, I defined 'liking to eat pizza' as Italian. It's a purely philosophical approach to the pizza issue. The philosophy of Judaism is not Humanism. Making every Humanist an honorary Jew is meaningless. Who *isn't* Jewish in your system?

"I have yet to see any data that supports this claim. (If you have it I would like to see it). In my discussions with Reform Jews I get the impression that retention isn't an issue of the sort that self-righteous Orthodox Rabbis make it out to be."

What exactly are you contesting? Intermarriage rates? Ignorance of Judaism? Regular Jewish activities?

Reform and Conservative Judaism get regular newcomers from the more traditional movements to their right, but without that they're just the lower rungs on the generational ladder leading to a loss of Jewish identity. Their attrition rate isn't huge, but it's progressive. When Orthodoxy loses a person, he goes to another denomination. When Reform loses someone he's not even on the radar anymore.

http://www.ujc.org/local_includes/downloads/7579.pdf


"As for intermarriage, and day-to-day life as a Jew, the Reform approach is a problem for (again) Orthodox people.... For a Reform person being a day-to-day Jew may mean not cheating on your taxes because it is a Jewish value."

No, it's a problem for Judaism! For what it means to be a Jew. If Judaism is just about not cheating on your taxes then what kind of identity is that? It's BS.

Judaism has a great number of universalistic values, but without some particularly Jewish values there's nothing left for the name "Judaism" to point to.

"But again, you are have only reinforced that you are missing my point. Judaism could be about philosophy (not cheating on taxes) as opposed to being about ritual (tzitzit)."

I'm not missing the point, I'm rejecting it. If it's going to be about philosophy then it has to be a Jewish philosophy. Calling Humanism "Judaim" doesn't make it Judaism and doesn't make it a meaningful way to live as a Jew.

"In the modern world the key to keeping orthodoxy alive is their birth rate not their "engaging" form of religion."

My concern is not for Orthodoxy. My concern is for a meaningful engagement of Jews with their heritage and their identity. And that is most reliably and well done through a program where people *live* Judaism.

jewish philosopher said...

Reform Judaism and intermarriage are clearly gateways to complete assimilation. Look at what happened to the Jews of China, for example. And Israel will most probably evolve into another Lebanon over the coming decades.

History has proven many times that without intensive Talmudic study and observance, there can be no Jews.

Lubab No More said...

OP,

> No, I defined 'liking to eat pizza' as Italian. It's a purely philosophical approach to the pizza issue.

Is this seriously your argument?

> The philosophy of Judaism is not Humanism. Making every Humanist an honorary Jew is meaningless. Who *isn't* Jewish in your system?

Yeah, that's not at all what I suggested.


> Their attrition rate isn't huge, but it's progressive. When Orthodoxy loses a person, he goes to another denomination. When Reform loses someone he's not even on the radar anymore.

The attrition rate is high enough that it is sustainable.
Thanks for the PDF, BTW. What is interesting is that according to the UJC data of those Jews who were raised Orthodox only 42% stay orthodox. Whereas of those raised reform 78% remain reform! [pg 10] Orthodoxy seems to bleed members. They just happen to have a great breeding program. Without high birth rates ORTHODOXY would not be sustainable. Reform is getting along fine on its own.

> No, it's a problem for Judaism! For what it means to be a Jew. If Judaism is just about not cheating on your taxes then what kind of identity is that? It's BS.

I have no doubt you would disagree with my idea if took the time to actually read it. My whole point IS to redefine what it means to be a Jew. For many Jewish people Jewish identity is all about "tikkun olam". What you call BS is a way of life for much of Jewry.

> Judaism has a great number of universalistic values, but without some particularly Jewish values there's nothing left for the name "Judaism" to point to.

Again, I never suggested renaming humanism Judaism (not sure why you're so hung up on that). The point was to take JEWISH values (many, but not all, of which are universal) and make those JEWISH values the focus.

> I'm not missing the point, I'm rejecting it. If it's going to be about philosophy then it has to be a Jewish philosophy. Calling Humanism "Judaim" doesn't make it Judaism and doesn't make it a meaningful way to live as a Jew.

Clearly you're argueing with your own straw man. See my comments above. (And re-read my original statement while you're at it).

> My concern is for a meaningful engagement of Jews with their heritage and their identity.

A goal which I have never claimed was important to my idea. In fact I suggested that being Jewish should be about how you live your life, not about who you are, or as a means for connecting with a Jewish heritage.

jewish philosopher said...

Does anyone get the feeling that this blog is cover for missionaries?

Freethinking Upstart said...

suitepotato,

From the tone and rambling of your comment I don't know if you are interested in discussing your ideas or just dropping in and ranting. In case it's the former...

>Third, atheism has no place in Judaism...

Ever heard of Recon Judaism? What that's not Judaism? Try selling that to the million+ non-theistic Jews to whom Judaism is of such import. On what basis do you say this? According to which definition of Judaism does atheism disqualify you?

>Even Buddhists ...have, albeit a hazy indistinct one, a concept of a supreme being or state of being.

On the supreme being you are incorrect. Though some forms of Buddhism have deities, much of Buddhist philosophy is non-theistic. Do a little research on the Buddha himself and Buddhist philosphy. If you are regarding Nirvana or equivocating God to a state of being, you are excessively vague.

>most of humanism/atheism is hypocritical bunk and naive self-deception.

Care to share how you've come to these gross misconceptions of these belief systems?

Besides the self-righteous, negative tone of your comment, it's riddled with straw men and baseless assertions.

In the end, I'm feeling disillusioned. I found your comments interesting in the past, but this one really bothers me. I hope I've misunderstood you.

Orthoprax said...

LNM,

"Is this seriously your argument?"

I honestly see little difference with renaming Humanism "Judaism" with renaming liking pizza with "Italian." How could real Italians persist if that's all their identity consisted of? The same can be said of the "Judaism" your pushing. It's a weak, diluted remnant of a vibrant way of life.

"Yeah, that's not at all what I suggested."

That's precisely what you suggested - 'Jewish values (tzedakah, love for ones fellow, etc.) should make one Jewish (if not literally Jew-ish).' Ergo, those who give some charity and follow the golden rule are honorary Jews.

"The attrition rate is high enough that it is sustainable."

No, that's my point - it is not.

"What is interesting is that according to the UJC data of those Jews who were raised Orthodox only 42% stay orthodox. Whereas of those raised reform 78% remain reform! [pg 10] Orthodoxy seems to bleed members. They just happen to have a great breeding program. Without high birth rates ORTHODOXY would not be sustainable. Reform is getting along fine on its own."

This is my point. While I think the 58% attriton rate doesn't represent anything remotely like what we see on the ground, the fact is that those who are rasied Orthodox have a close to 100% retention as *Jews* somewhere along the spectrum with their identities intact.

If you're raised Reform and you still have some Jewish identity then you're likely to stick nominally with that denomination since it requires no duties or obligations, but once you're lost from Reform you're probably not even being counted on this survey. The only way it's sustained is by the trickle-down demographics of Orthodox attrition.

So, when people leave Orthodoxy they just leave Orthodoxy. When people leave Reform they're likely to be leaving the Jewish people.

"I have no doubt you would disagree with my idea if took the time to actually read it. My whole point IS to redefine what it means to be a Jew. For many Jewish people Jewish identity is all about "tikkun olam". What you call BS is a way of life for much of Jewry."

Like I said, I understand your proposal and I'm calling it as I see it. It's BS. There's nothing wrong with tikkun olam, I like it very much, but that's not the be all and end all of a Jewish identity. If it ever was then that would be like "liking pizza" being the be all and end all of an Italian identity.

"Again, I never suggested renaming humanism Judaism (not sure why you're so hung up on that). The point was to take JEWISH values (many, but not all, of which are universal) and make those JEWISH values the focus."

Name one particularly Jewish value that Judaism can point to, whereas Humanism cannot. What makes your "philosophical Judaism" different from Humanism?

"A goal which I have never claimed was important to my idea. In fact I suggested that being Jewish should be about how you live your life, not about who you are, or as a means for connecting with a Jewish heritage."

Exactly. So what do you think is Jewish about your idea? Like I said several times - which you seem unable to comprehend - what you are describing is HUMANISM. You're just calling it Judaism and pretending they're the same.

The Candy Man said...

Great discussion, everybody! I will respond to a few comments.

@suitepotato,

Marrying within a group is always a tendency of humans...Jews marrying only other Jews seems suspicious and unfriendly. To Christians. To Jews, just the opposite...

There's always been a spectrum within human society. I can only speak for myself, but I think discrimination along racial lines is a terrible idea.

The American people had the same discussion fifty years ago about blacks marrying whites. Which was prohibited in all those Southern states. They eventually decided it was a bad idea to discriminate based on race, although the legacy of those bad years lives on.

We of all people should be careful about racial discrimination, which was the basis of the Holocaust as well.

JP,
Look at what happened to the Jews of China, for example.

The Kaifeng Jews are an interesting case study. Although as you say they are not around anymore, according to wikipedia:

"It is surmised that the ancestors of the Kaifeng Jews came from Central Asia. The uninterrupted existence of this religious and ethnic group, living for over 700 years in socio-cultural surroundings strongly dominated by Confucian moral and ethical principles, is a unique phenomenon in Chinese and Jewish history."

700 years ain't too shabby. We may be able to learn something from the Kaifeng Jews.

It is interesting that my girlfriend's home town is only a hundred miles or so from Kaifeng. When I visit, I plan to do a pilgrimage to Kaifeng and learn more about those Jews.

@OP:
Reform and Conservative Judaism have largely failed to retain people in the Jewish fold after a couple of generations. Intermarriage is rampant, ignorance of Judaism is huge and the practical day to day life as a Jew, I'm sorry to say, barely exists in those movements.

Oh, please. I know plenty of Conservative and Reform Jews who take their religion very seriously. And I know plenty of Orthodox Jews who don't.

Once you get out of the Orthodox bubble world you'll make friends with some of these folks, too.

Name one particularly Jewish value that Judaism can point to, whereas Humanism cannot. What makes your "philosophical Judaism" different from Humanism?

Humanism drew on many great religions, but I do think there are values within Judaism that you may be overlooking.

For instance, take the idea of Sabbath and Sh'mita. These are ideas that still resonate today. Giving your body a rest. Giving yourself time to reflect. Giving the land a time to recover and rejuvenate itself. If anything, these ideas are more relevant today than ever before. They are not particularly humanist, nor particularly Christian. They are not uniquely Jewish, but very little is.

Anyways, just something to think about.

jewish philosopher said...

"700 years ain't too shabby. We may be able to learn something from the Kaifeng Jews."

We can - what not to do. Today a handful of Chinese people call themselves Jews and don't eat pork. That's it for Chinese Jewry.

Orthoprax said...

CM,

"Oh, please. I know plenty of Conservative and Reform Jews who take their religion very seriously. And I know plenty of Orthodox Jews who don't.
Once you get out of the Orthodox bubble world you'll make friends with some of these folks, too."

I don't live in a bubble world. I know many Jews throughout the spectrum. And while there are a good number of active Conservative Jews and some active Reform Jews, this is by and large simply not the case generally. I know a lot more apathetic non-Orthodox Jews.

"Humanism drew on many great religions, but I do think there are values within Judaism that you may be overlooking.
For instance, take the idea of Sabbath and Sh'mita. These are ideas that still resonate today."

Uh huh. So is LNM arguing for the observance of Shabbos or Shmita? I think not. He's arguing for the observance of ethical rules and calling that Judaism.

The Candy Man said...

OP,
We can - what not to do. Today a handful of Chinese people call themselves Jews and don't eat pork. That's it for Chinese Jewry.

Kaifeng is it's own story and deserves full treatment elsewhere. The community is so old that their traditions vary significantly from, say, European Judaism.

I don't live in a bubble world. I know many Jews throughout the spectrum.

Good, good. Me too. I do think commitment to Judaism runs high in Ortho circles, but remember that comes at a cost. And I am less impressed by an Ortho who ends up devoting his life to kollel than a lesbian Reform Jew who decideds to become a rabbi.

So is LNM arguing for the observance of Shabbos or Shmita? I think not. He's arguing for the observance of ethical rules and calling that Judaism.

I think LNM was talking about opening our minds to understressed parts of our tradition, rather than just the ritual or racial aspects. Morality is one part of that, but it's not everything.

Judaism has no monopoly on monotheism. Christianity has no monopoly on brotherly love. Humanism has no monopoly on the ethic of reciprocity or society welfare.

Like I said in the post, it's not a competition. Judaism should not feel compelled to focus on what makes it unique just in order to be unique. Being unique is not a compelling value proposition.

There's a conversation going on between races and religions. Some things we can all agree on. And those are probably the most important things. Beyond that, there are other things we can share with each other and enjoy with each other. Those are also important. The trick is not to lose sight of the former for the sake of the latter.

The Candy Man said...

As for Sh'mita, I do think it's an understressed aspect of our tradition. We basically use loopholes to get out of it. And yet, the Judaism proscribed in Deuteronomy - an agricultural Judaism of sh'mitot and pe'ot - is actually something worth reexamining today. The Deuteronomic authors were addressing significant environmental and social problems, which still have not been solved.

Orthoprax said...

CM,

"Good, good. Me too. I do think commitment to Judaism runs high in Ortho circles, but remember that comes at a cost. And I am less impressed by an Ortho who ends up devoting his life to kollel than a lesbian Reform Jew who decideds to become a rabbi."

Frankly I'm not too impressed with either of them. My whole thesis on Judaism is how to retain the commitment while reducing the cost - an open-minded, well balanced observant community. Your thesis is how to set the bar so low that there's no cost at all, even if it may mean the dissolution of the Jewish people.

"I think LNM was talking about opening our minds to understressed parts of our tradition, rather than just the ritual or racial aspects. Morality is one part of that, but it's not everything."

Are you speaking for him now? That's not what he said, nor do I believe was it what he meant. He wanted a stripped down Jewish identity that defined itself solely by Humanistic attributes.

In double case though, I'm plain offended at your continued libel of the Jewish people with racism. Jews are not a race and the concern with intermarriage has nothing to do with mixing with impure blood or anything like that. In today's world it's about retaining Jewish identity from one generation to the next - as a heritage - as a family walking in the path of our forefathers, our ancestors.

A person's Jewish identity and conception of his people are built from the home. When you try to syncretize a home from different traditions, there is an obvious threat that the children in that household are not going to grow up with a good sense of themselves as Jews.

mOOm said...

My mother is an orthodox convert to Judaism. But when I was growing up, after my father told me this one day, we were told never to tell anyone else. It was a big secret and I think no-one in the community there in London where we grew up - a nominally orthodox community where we were one of the most frum families ever knew for sure. Studying at a BT Yeshiva in Jerusalem I definitely came across quite a bit of hostility to converts which is one thing that put me off orthodoxy apart from not believing of course. I wonder how JP (Steins)'s children will do when it comes to Shiddukhim....

Lubab No More said...

OP

> It's a weak, diluted remnant of a vibrant way of life.

Sounds like you would say the same thing for any form of Judaism that isn't orthodoxy.

>> "The attrition rate is high enough that it is sustainable."
> No, that's my point - it is not.

You only need a reproduction rate of 50.1% to sustain any population, if I'm not mistaken. So long as reform retains at least that much they are sustainable. Period.

> The only way it's sustained is by the trickle-down demographics of Orthodox attrition.

I don't see any data to support the idea that reform is ONLY sustained by "trickle-down" demographics (unless you count my 5th grade rebbe as a source). What I have seen is that a significant majority of people who are raised reform are happy with that way of life, they maintain it and then pass it on to their children.

> So, when people leave Orthodoxy they just leave Orthodoxy. When people leave Reform they're likely to be leaving the Jewish people.

Ok. So? Before reform came along when people left orthodoxy they were likely to be leaving the Jewish people too. Reform and orthodoxy both have attrition rates. What makes them sustainable is not where the disenchanted go. Weather they are sustainable or not depends on their ability to hold onto enough of their kind to keep the system going. The data you provided says reform does that even without the additional ex-orthodox who join.

> It's BS. There's nothing wrong with tikkun olam, I like it very much, but that's not the be all and end all of a Jewish identity.

This is YOUR opinion. I have no problem with you feeling this way. Just don't act like your personal preference is a FACT. There are thousands upon thousands of Jews who feel differently and live tikkun olam as a way of expressing their spirituality.

> Name one particularly Jewish value that Judaism can point to, whereas Humanism cannot.

So, now you're argueing that Judaism is simply Humanism... but in a Sukkah?

Similar to what TCM said in a later comment, in my idea (which I'm getting the impression you disagree with) you might take a concept like Shabbos and then find a way to implement it in an non-halachic way for non-halachic reasons. People already do this. Take the Technology Sabbath as an example. People who take this on aren't doing it for religious reasons and it has nothing to do with humanism. It is a way of life inspired by Jewish values.

> what you are describing is HUMANISM. You're just calling it Judaism and pretending they're the same.

Another straw man. You've redefined my idea and now you're trying to tear down your own (wrong) definition.

If you took half the effort you put into attacking other peoples ideas and instead spent it on trying to make orthodoxy more appealing you might actually accomplish something.

Orthoprax said...

CM,

"There is a race component to Judaism, and the more you deny it, the more I'll throw it back at you. You are Jewish by BIRTH. People can convert religiously, but the religion also automatically makes people Jewish by BIRTH. So does the state of Israel."

Oh, right. Evidently 'American' must be a race too. I mean, you're granted citizenship by BIRTH.

"Now, you can nitpick and say, it's not technically race. It's a nation. Etc. Fine with me. But it's semantics. If it is your PARENTS that define your JUDAISM, then all you've really got is a race in the end."

Utter BS. Not only are you intentionally conflating nation and race, you're plainly doing so to libel Jews, not just of bigotry, but of a flashword like racism.

"You are so concerned about Jewish commitment. Why? Why are you so passionate about Jews? And Jewish things? Do you think Judaism is SO important that the world would be so terribly off without it? Do you take such joy and pride in your own ethnic rituals that you think others are not just as significant?"

I take great pride in my Jewish identity, the things Judaism and individual Jews have contributed to the world. And while there are some prominent modern issues - also the solid ethical standards the tradition supports. As a Jew, I am not just a man alone, I am a member of a millenia-spanning family with a unique way of life that constantly raises man's consciousness towards the transcendent and to ideals beyond the interests of the moment and the self.

Do other peoples also have their own traditions and so on? Sure - and I don't say the Jewish way is necessarily better or worse than many of them. But that's their way and we have ours.

Frankly, I leave it to to explain how you can be so cavalier and uncaring about the fate of your own people. The chain of Jewish transmission has lasted for a hundred generations and more - and you're freely choosing to be the last link. Have you no shame?

"And an obvious benefit is that it fosters tolerance and open-mindedness towards all cultures."

Right. If you don't have a culture that you can call your own then you'll likely be tolerant of cultures generally. Or maybe you'll never be able to understand people who take theirs seriously and be intolerant of all such people.

We've had this discussion before and I strongly disagree with the sentiment that we need to eviscerate our cultural identities in order to promote cultural tolerance. That's like decimating two sides of a war in order to accomplish peace. Humanity comes out much poorer with such Pyrrhic victories.

"You are a husband, possibly a father. Watch your kids and ask yourself: are they growing up to love their fellow American?"

I'm actually not married and I do not have children. But nevertheless, you are making a grossly egregious false dilemma. Either you have a strong sense of Jewish identity and thereby foster bigotry or intermarry and promote peace. Right. It's BS and I say it's a rationalization to make you feel better about you flushing your Judaism down the toilet. One can be uncompromisingly Jewish and be a brother to all men - thank you very much.

Orthoprax said...

LNM,

"Sounds like you would say the same thing for any form of Judaism that isn't orthodoxy."

No, I was saying that about the kind of "Judaism" you were pushing. I have some high hopes for the more consistent strands of Conservative Jewry and Reconstructionism.

"You only need a reproduction rate of 50.1% to sustain any population, if I'm not mistaken. So long as reform retains at least that much they are sustainable. Period."

Well, since Reform Jews only have an average of 1.72 children per family (Heritage, 1994) - that alone isn't enough to hold a sustainable population. This finding is also corroborated in the NJPS survey I sent you where (Table 6) an amazing 86% of Reform households have zero children. 11% have 1 and only 3% have 2 or more.

Add that to huge intermarriage and a sizable attrition rate and you can do the math.

"Ok. So? Before reform came along when people left orthodoxy they were likely to be leaving the Jewish people too. Reform and orthodoxy both have attrition rates. What makes them sustainable is not where the disenchanted go."

Wrong. This is part of my point. Living Judaism - practically through Orthodoxy - engages people to stay within Judaism somewhere. Liberal groups have a place within the Jewish picture but they've got to be engaging enough to actually be sustainable, rather than just the last rung to evaporation.

"This is YOUR opinion. I have no problem with you feeling this way. Just don't act like your personal preference is a FACT. There are thousands upon thousands of Jews who feel differently and live tikkun olam as a way of expressing their spirituality."

Yeah, and those same groups have among the lowest rates of feeling Jewish and knowing what being Jewish means to them (Table 7).

"So, now you're argueing that Judaism is simply Humanism... but in a Sukkah?"

What? No. Judaism is not just acting ethically, there's a whole backstory, texts, rituals, philosophies, etc that make a whole picture of what Judaism is. You're the one who's redefining Judaism to just mean 'acting ethically' - and that's it.

"Similar to what TCM said in a later comment, in my idea (which I'm getting the impression you disagree with) you might take a concept like Shabbos and then find a way to implement it in an non-halachic way for non-halachic reasons. People already do this. Take the Technology Sabbath as an example. People who take this on aren't doing it for religious reasons and it has nothing to do with humanism. It is a way of life inspired by Jewish values."


Woah. Hold on there. Full stop. This was not what you had said in your comments earlier. There was nothing you said that implied you had any interest in promulgating any particularly Jewish traditions in any form. You didn't even attempt to add that on to any of your comments later on until just now.

This new proposal of yours I may disagree with on practical grounds because I just don't think it'll be effective, but I don't reject it as a matter of philosophical abhorrence.

"Another straw man. You've redefined my idea and now you're trying to tear down your own (wrong) definition."

No - you're redefining your idea and pretending I was taking a strawman. Maybe *you* should re-read your own posts and see what you wrote.

Lubab No More said...

OP,

> This was not what you had said in your comments earlier. There was nothing you said that implied you had any interest in promulgating any particularly Jewish traditions in any form. You didn't even attempt to add that on to any of your comments later on until just now.

This is not what you read into my earlier comments. You had already made up your mind that you knew what I was talking about from comment one. You quickly labeled it Christianity and then went on a tirade about humanism. Now I have to quote myself to you (I'm embarrassed for both of us, BTW) because you refuse to read my comments without your preconceived notions about them:

"Reform Judaism is similar to what I have in mind."

"The whole point is that it is rooted in Judaism."

"The point was to take JEWISH values (many, but not all, of which are universal) and make those JEWISH values the focus."

Of course, any approach to life based on a philosophy of Jewish values will have a strong humanist flavor to it (Torah on one foot = that which you hate, don't do to others) but I likened my idea to reform Judaism and to support the legitimacy of my idea I have been arguing that reform Judaism is a valid, sustainable way of life.

You're so busy picking a fight you fail to make your point. (You were trying to make a point, right?) Or, did you just spend all this time because you wanted to tell me that you didn't like my thought?

It used to be that when we fought I would sometimes learn something or at least sharpen my ideas. Clearly this go around I've just been wasted my time.

The Candy Man said...

You didn't grow up in the day school system, did you OP?

The Candy Man said...

Either you have a strong sense of Jewish identity and thereby foster bigotry or intermarry and promote peace. Right. It's BS and I say it's a rationalization to make you feel better about you flushing your Judaism down the toilet. One can be uncompromisingly Jewish and be a brother to all men - thank you very much.

Nah. I'm the one who's thought through my Judaism - not you. You equate intermarriage with 'flushing Judaism down the toilet,' but that's only because your notion of Judaism is marrying Jewish. That's the core of your Judaism - doing the same thing your parents did, talking to people who think like you, praying with a group who does exactly like you - or as close as possible.

You claim to be a "brother to all men," but I have lived within the Orthodox community most of my life and I think that's the BS here. I doubt you have a single close non-Jewish friend. And I don't think you went to day school, either.

My challenge to Judaism is a real one. If Judaism wants to be a discrimination-based race, that's fine. Lo haim v'lo scharam - I don't want any part in it. It's not a rationalization. It's called having values.

So I reject your shallow, race-based form of Judaism, yes I do. It's a foolish waste of time, and it's caused me a lot of tzaros, people like you never questioning the religion they're practicing. Accepting it out of some strange sense of duty, or perhaps because deep down they need to identify with some group over another. Whatever the reason, it's not love of god or man that drives them.

But there is another way, which I have spoken of in the post. That's real love, real Judaism. Perhaps one day you will see the light, OP. You're not married yet... I'd keep your options open.

September 5, 2008 12:09 AM

Orthoprax said...

LNM,

Yeah, I'm still not seeing anything from your self-quotes which tells me that your idea had anything to do with Judaism as a religious tradition except in name. When you said that generic ethical values like giving tzedakah and loving one's fellow were what made a person Jewish, that still sounds exactly like Humanism with Judaism in name only.

If all you were doing was promoting Reform Judaism then you could have just said so. Based on the post and what you sounded like, it seemed you were promoting an absurd CandyMan-esque phantom Judaism.

My point was a rejection of that kind of emptied-out Judaism. Only if your goal is a dissolution of Judaism generally is that a good idea.


CM,

You actually don't know me at all. You were wrong on every single count of who you think I am, who I socialize with, and my personal history.

I take a hard line against jokers like you, but to say that I don't question Judaism just makes you look foolish to anyone in the blogging world that's known me.

Your so-called love-based, Obama-worshiping 'Judaism' is a farce. You want to leave your people and your heritage? So long. But to make yourself out to be a victim of- and some sort of noble crusader against the classic antisemitic canard of Judaism being a racist religion is just a sick joke.

Not only do you think you're just making a free choice to marry out, you actually seem to think that it is a *moral* act to do so. You think you're *saving* Judaism from it's so-called intrinsic racism and promoting your act to some sort of reishit geulatainu on the way to world peace. What gall! What narcissism!

You can't see that your whole line of argumentation is an elaborate rationalization to turn what you perceive as Judaism's greatest sin into, practically, a moral obligation? Naturally I can appreciate the irony.

You think you're putting down Judaism and making long essays in favor of intermarriage because of love and your valuation of humanity? You really think so? I think it's nothing more than a vengeful attempt to strike back against the Judaism that cannot accept people like you who wish to make a dead-end of their heritage.

jewish philosopher said...

Candy Man, do you promote Christianity?

The Candy Man said...

OP,
You can't see that your whole line of argumentation is an elaborate rationalization to turn what you perceive as Judaism's greatest sin into, practically, a moral obligation?

I think you should listen to my arguments, rather than try to figure out my motivations. Motivations are different for every person, and of course I am nogaya b'davar about intermarriage - just as every Jew who married Jewish is nogaya b'davar.

Look not at the vessel, but by what it contains. There are young vessels with aged wine, and aged vessels that contain nothing at all.

JP,
Candy Man, do you promote Christianity?

Promote is a strange choice of words. I have nothing against Christianity, Judaism, or any of the world's religions. I think organized religions in general no longer lead the world, but on the other hand I like to think that they do more good than harm.

I take a Pirkei Avot approach towards life. Who is wise? He who learns from every man. Do not mock any man, and don't be disrespectful towards any thing, for every man has his hour, and every thing has his place.

Christianity can learn from Judaism. Judaism can learn from Christianity. Atheists can learn from the pious, and the pious can learn from the atheists. We have more in common that we have differences.

Orthoprax said...

CM,

"I think you should listen to my arguments, rather than try to figure out my motivations."

I have - and they are bunk. Nation does not mean race and pride in one's heritage does not mean racism. You conflate them in order to make a 'moral stand' against a construction in your mind.

"Motivations are different for every person, and of course I am nogaya b'davar about intermarriage - just as every Jew who married Jewish is nogaya b'davar."

So I guess the only unbiased people are folks like me. How about that.

"Look not at the vessel, but by what it contains. There are young vessels with aged wine, and aged vessels that contain nothing at all."

Too true. Your vessel says candy, but your advice is straight-out poison for the Jewish people.

The Candy Man said...

Eh, OP, maybe you'll like my next post better. This one didn't resonate with you, and I'm OK with that.

Kid Charlemagne said...

wow! I have been disconnected from the network for the past ten days due to moving....

look where the discussion has gone.

as someone who can speak from experience, I grew up in a traditional, kosher home and attended orthodox day school. at that time the skirts on the girls were well above the knee. ya gotta have luv the mini skirt craze for the '80's. we debated at that time in school were we a day school or yeshiva? I was one of seven students who went to college following HS graduations. the rest of the class spent a year in Israel in yeshiva.

fast forward twenty years and the skirts are so long, they drag along on the floor. there is no such thing as 'modern orthodoxy'. the neighborhood has changed with a tremendous shift to the right and shteibels on every corner.

my wife and I thought briefly about buying a house in the 'hood and be close to my parents but with the commute to work and the fact she is Korean, we decided against it and thus remain where we are.

someone mentioned the strong sense of Jewish identity a Jew can have. well that fire burns within me. it especially roars when I go to shul (traditional conservative) and have to up to the bimah and do the haftorah on the spot. all the grandmas and grandpas luv it. except for the rabbi and cantor, I am the only one under 65 not collecting SS.

intermarriage will always occur. the question is how does the individual families deal with it, how does the kehillah deals with etc.

if you do not choose the path of kiruv, then you will most definitely extinguish the flame of ahavat yisrael.

for me, as a Jew, I always felt like an outsider towards the USA as whole and now I am outsider towards the Jewish community as well.

I will conclude with my favorite quote from Shabbtai Zissel ben Avraham

"Well, I try my best
To be just like I am,
But everybody wants you
To be just like them.
They sing while you slave and I just get bored.
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more."

Orthoprax said...

KC,

I have nothing against marrying people outside of the Jewish community - as long as it is understood that the children will be Jews and will be raised in a way that firmly supports their growth as Jews. This is well construed under the banner of conversion which ensures that the to-be spouse holds these interests and the daily commitment to see them through.

A close friend of my family married a Chinese lady who converted. Unfortunately she has had her share of troubles from some of the closed-minds of the community, but from my perspective I don't think the union is a problem in the least.

I think it's great that you have an enthusiasm for Judaism - frankly I'd be quite anxious about reading a haftorah that I hadn't prepared for - but the issue does not address you, since you apparently had a solidly Jewish upbringing. The issue is for your children.

jewish philosopher said...

"Christianity can learn from Judaism. Judaism can learn from Christianity. Atheists can learn from the pious, and the pious can learn from the atheists. We have more in common that we have differences."

Nazism can learn from Judaism. Judaism can learn from Nazism. Communists can learn from the pious, and the pious can learn from the Communists. We have more in common that we have differences.

Anonymous said...

The orthodox community is as divided as ever, and can't agree on even the most basic questions like what they're allowed to eat. There is more cooperation between Conservative and Reform, but Jews by nature are contentious, independent minded, and not accepting of authority.While the prospects for Judaism are better in Israel, Israeli society as a whole has many problems to work through, and these solutions will go hand in hand with Israel's Jewish nature.