Blessed are you, Lord, our God, sovereign of the universe Who separates between sacred and secular, between light and darkness, between Israel and the nations, between the seventh day and the six days of labor.Between Israel and the nations... Ugh. The whole prayer reads like the analogy section of the SATs. "Light is to Darkness as Israel is to _____ ?"
My post last week about non-Jewish relatives provoked a bunch of responses where people tried to reconcile the idea of a "chosen people" with modern liberal thought. But the havdalah service makes it clear which side you should want to be on. On one side you have sacred/light/Israel/Sabbath/and lollipops. And on the other side you have secular/darkness/nations/six days of labor/and a lump of coal. Here is a list of opposites, avoid the bad ones if you can. At best havdalah is saying non-Jews are a necessary evil but ideally they should be avoided.
I want to contrast this Jewish service with one of the most famous speeches in American history. Dr. Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech. We've all heard it. And we all know the punchline:
And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:As in the havdalah service Dr. King gives a list of perceived opposites. But MLK has a totally different goal in mind. He wants these two sides to join together. He wants Jews and Gentiles to join hands and sing. His desire is for a unification, not a separation.
Free at last! Free at last!
Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!
Now that's a message I can get behind.
---------
In honor of Dr. Martin Luther Kings birthday (observed today) here is his famous speech in full:
72 comments:
That's a sucker punch.
Let's look at it another way - that some liberal philosophies believe management = bad and labor = good mean that all liberal philosophies can't find an honorable place for management? Nope.
It's tendentious to assert that your reading is valid across the board - there are plenty of Jews who don't find it difficult to interpret the phrases you quote in a way that inspires rather than lowers others to raise ourselves up.
Shai,
> some liberal philosophies believe management = bad and labor = good mean that all liberal philosophies can't find an honorable place for management? Nope.
Liberalism isn't a religion. And "some liberal philosophies" doesn't equal "a religious service" (like havdalah). Havdalah is universally accepted among Orthodox Jews. On the other hand, the age-old labor vs. management issue is not something all liberals agree on.
> there are plenty of Jews who don't find it difficult to interpret the phrases you quote in a way that inspires rather than lowers others to raise ourselves up.
Really? What's your interpretation? Please explain to me how comparing "the nations" to "darkness" can be inspiring.
"Really? What's your interpretation? Please explain to me how comparing "the nations" to "darkness" can be inspiring."
It's you who is giving it that interpretation. That's not what it's saying.
You're interpretation doesn't make any sense. If darkness represents evil here then we are not saying that G-d divides light and darkness but rather that He is continually making good and evil two seperate entities. Darkness here is not negative.
Actually what bothers me is just the opposite--the last line of Alenu. The traditional explanation for it doesn't make sense. Why do we need to daven that His Name Shall be One? That's up to God. If He wants to put up with other religions, then it's His business, not ours. Let Him handle it. At least that's the way I see it.
Ichabod Chrain
I'll tell you what. Why don't you move to Bed Stuy, East New York, Watts, CA, Detroit, MI or any other totally black neighborhood? See how long you last.
Why don't you try telling David Duke or Bin Laden that there are no differences between us. I don't think they'll agree with you. In fact I'd love to see you try walking through Beit Lechem, Nablus, or anywhere in the West Bank at night. Maybe if the Candyman brings Jelly Bellys or Laffy Taffy they won't kill you.I doubt it, but if you tried you'd change your tune.
While it is not nice to hang out our dirty laundry, but racism is very much a part of OJ, in belief and practice.
MLK's speech is ranked as one of the best speeches of the 20th century.
By default and logic, any people who can be said to be a thing and not some other thing are separate and apart from that which they aren't. Doesn't make them better or worse, just different.
It's human folly to think that differences connote better or worse.
Israel was a tribe, a nation, a gathering, a defined thing that wasn't something else. If you find joy in being one thing and the other doesn't particularly float your boat, that's fine. Give thanks for being what it is that makes you happy. Just don't look down your nose because someone else could be doing the same back at you and you call that antisemitism.
Which I suppose goes right back to LNM's argument towards a bit of embarrassment at the seeming superiority implied.
Just don't feel superior yourself then. If Israel is supposed to be a light to the nations and Jews the bringer of it, then feel what you should or do for that service and the importance. Humility is fine, but then there's nothing wrong with realizing that if you live up to what it is that G-d's wanting, a little pride ain't out of place.
> it is not nice to hang out our dirty laundry
The problem is Judaism claims to be the Truth (capital T) and from God. If Judaism is truly God-given then there is no such thing as dirty laundry, just God's honest truth.
I also might here you if there was discussion of these ideas but frankly I've never heard anyone raise these questions.
that's a polite translation. We have one version in a bencher that talks about dividing "Israel and the heathens"
I think about it like this: the world would be a boring place if everyone was the same, doing the same things, and looking the same and acting the same. Nations and ideologies and groups that subscribe to the idea that such homogeneity is a good thing tend to use tools to achieve it (murder and whatnot) that are abhorrent to most human beings.
If we can truly value the fact that everyone is created b'tzelem Elokim, then I don't have a problem celebrating my membership in a certain group, which anyone is free to join.
suitepotato,
> By default and logic, any people who can be said to be a thing and not some other thing are separate and apart from that which they aren't. Doesn't make them better or worse, just different.
Yes, just because people are different doesn't mean one group of people are better than the other. Men and women are a good example. However, havdalah doesn't just say Jews and non-Jews are different, it makes a list of analogies. Light and dark, sacred and secular, etc. There is a clear pattern that emerges and an implied judgment.
LNM,
If you want to read chauvinism into the idea of Jews being a chosen people that is your prerogative, but there are plenty of classical and contemporary views which hold rather different interpretations.
Instead of looking at the Havdalah blessing as some sort of SAT analogy, you should see that it's intended as a stepwise progression of distinctions that lead to the very act of Havdalah. Sacred v. Secular is a reference to God. Light and Darkness refers to creation. Israel and the nations refers to the Torah. And Shabbos and the six days is clearly about Shabbos and the very act of Havdalah that distinguishes them.
Lubab, seriously, if you intend on living an observant life then maybe you ought to be looking for positive ways to understand what you do rather than just acting helpless and pointing out problems.
"Yes, just because people are different doesn't mean one group of people are better than the other. Men and women are a good example. However, havdalah doesn't just say Jews and non-Jews are different, it makes a list of analogies. Light and dark, sacred and secular, etc. There is a clear pattern that emerges and an implied judgment."
You're reading what you want into it. Why don't you for once see things as they are rather than crash into reality later. All you want is approval. No judgments just to party. Meanwhile you get all judgemental with others.
The fact is also that different groups including men and women do have better abilities in some things than others. With men and women there's a lot of genetics involved. With ethnic groups there's a lot of culture involved. So as a Jew I can't pride myself on pyramids or colosseums but I can pride myself on monuments of the spirit in ways that have not been matched by Gentiles and in other ways imitated by them.
> If you want to read chauvinism into the idea of Jews being a chosen people that is your prerogative
The chauvinistic view of Jews as a chosen people is the majority opinion among Orthodox Jews. This isn't some minor, alternative idea I dug up to attack Orthodoxy. I suppose it's my prerogative to share that opinion but don't pretend that this is anything less than the prevailing position among Orthodox people.
> you should see that it's intended as a stepwise progression of distinctions that lead to the very act of Havdalah.
I'm glad to see a least someone was able to give a half-decent take on havdalah. Pretty good. Is this your own idea or is there a midrash I should be looking up?
> Lubab, seriously, if you intend on living an observant life then maybe you ought to be looking for positive ways to understand what you do rather than just acting helpless and pointing out problems.
Orthoprax, I think it's pretty clear that I don't want to live an "observant" life. What you call "looking for positive ways to understand what you do" I call "rationalizing" and "making excuses". I don't believe that god gave the Torah to man on a mountain-top so, why would I invest energy in twisting the Torah to fit with my 21st century ideals? I believe in my values because they make sense to me. I don't need an ancient text to justify my beliefs.
I point out problems in Orthodoxy for a number of reasons. One of which is I believe in the idea that "sunshine is the best disinfectant".
I'm not sure what you mean by "acting helpless". Do you mean I act like I am unable (helpless) to make Judaism into what I want it to be? (Again, I'm not sure if that's what you mean, you were pretty vague, but I'll answer my own question anyway). I don't want Judaism to be what I want it to be. My opinion shouldn't matter. I just want to understand the Truth about my existence. If Judaism has the answer then, great! However, if it doesn't then I'm not going to try to shape it into what I want. I'm sure I could construct a narrative I would like but wouldn't make me correct. I'm interested in reality, no matter how harsh and cold it may be.
Wow, what a post. MLK would be proud.
The contrast between the divisionary havdala and the unifying MLK quote is striking.
>I'll tell you what. Why don't you move to Bed Stuy, East New York, ... or any other totally black neighborhood? See how long you last.
Yet just today Obama openly criticized anti-Semitism within the black community, in an Atlanta church (www.mybarackobama.com, 11 minutes into the speech). The dialogue is going on there.
MLK was a minister. Religion was close to his heart. He was a man of God. It wasn't about bashing the old. It was about learning, embracing, developing. I think this is what LNM is getting at here.
LNM, b'gadol the perspective you need to shake is that there exists an authoritative perspective on Judaism that is from G-d. My own view is that the basic ideas were from G-d and given at Sinai, and the rest is Talmud Torah - our attempt as Jews to understand and develop those ideas in ways that were relevant to the societies we lived in and live in.
My suggestion is that you abandon the pointless path of criticizing the views you disagree with, even if they are a majority view, and take the advice of Pirkey Avot - "in a city where there are no men, be a man". Adding to the white noise of criticism about what Judaism is serves no redeeming purpose.
Let me represent what I mean by an example, using the Havdalah aphorism. These ideas are not my own, they are the ideas of many great rabbinical figures. In fact, I recently read similar ideas in Chief Rabbi Sacks' books. If he's not a "majority" view, then spend your efforts making it a majority view. The view I prefer is that Judaism is the only monotheistic religion of the 3 main monotheistic religions that doesn't demand others to be just like them. We have a Noachide covenant, that defines the level all humans should reach and we do not demand everyone be Jewish. The status that Jews have today in the eyes of our tradition is one that evolved as a "replacement theology" of sorts for the generations before Abraham that did not take upon themselves these Noachide Laws. Christians and Muslims in succession took this "chosen-ness" for themselves, the same way we took it (we claim we were given it) from the generations before.
But contrary to Islam and Christianity, our taking succession manifested itself as a sense of obligation, not a sense of superiority. Now, I can't argue with you that there are streams within our tradition that are triumphalist and fascist, but on the whole this is not what Judaism is, nor what it needs to be.
To sum up, all I'm saying is that you can achieve a lot more of what you want from Judaism, if indeed you still want something, by envisioning what you want it to be. I am not saying that you shouldn't have your criticisms - that would be pointless - you can't know what you want unless you have the courage to state what you don't want. Rather, I'm asking you to breath deeply when you see something that seems negative, don't see your response as "rationalizing" and "making excuses". Have the humility to believe you perhaps haven't interpreted it correctly, and the courage to interpret it in a way that is constructive - in a way that makes the world, and your Jewish community, better places than they are now.
This requires a commitment, a sense of obligation, to see what you call "making excuses" in the framework of "kol yisrael areivim zeh l'zeh". Judaism shouldn't be for you, or anybody, something we just consume. It should be something we build upon so that it enriches life. It's not a cookbook, it's a context, LBN. At least that's how I feel about it.
Allow me to suggest this litmus test as to whether or not a particular passage is objectionable:
Imagine that this same text, but reversing Gentiles and Jews, appeared in mainstream literature in the United States. That in a non-jewish school they regularly recite thanks for seperating "us Gentiles from the Jews". Or at a ceremony, a priest makes a prayer like alienu praising the real "gentile God", as opposed the hollow god of the Jews. Or a morning blessing thanking god for "not making me a Jews, slave or woman" . How amenable would you be to nice fuzzy liberal explanations about "seperate but not better", etc?
On the other hand I simply deal with it, James Kugel style. (Anybody read his great new book "How to Read the Bible"?). Judaism is what people make of it at any time, just like art or poetry-- there is no "right" interpretation, even if you ask the original artist, its about how people understand it. So I prefer to ignore the things I don't identify with, but things that are really objectionable to me I skip. I think of prayer as a meditation, not to be taken literally, just like the bible itself
DrJ,
> Imagine that this same text, but reversing Gentiles and Jews, appeared in mainstream literature in the United States.
Well said.
"Or at a ceremony, a priest makes a prayer like alienu praising the real "gentile God", as opposed the hollow god of the Jews."
Are you making a pitch for becoming Terach's cheering section? Judaism is a battle against idolatry, and it embodies the idea of an invisible yet ever-present G-d that has obligated all humanity to recognize all of humanity as being made in His image. I don't buy the idea that gods of wood and stone (or money, or whatever else you want) that are stand-ins for human characteristics are the equivalent of the Jewish idea of G-d, and I don't see the point of mincing words about it. If non-Jews do not believe in such gods, then there's no argument, but there's nothing good gained by saying such idoltric ideas are in any way equivalent. This does not mean that we can't be tolerant of people who hold those ideas, but that's nto the same as saying those ideas are legitimate.
"Or a morning blessing thanking god for "not making me a Jews, slave or woman"
Well, I'm with you on the Jew and woman part - I don't think anybody would complain about the slave one.
"How amenable would you be to nice fuzzy liberal explanations about "seperate but not better", etc?"
I think you're fooling yourself that we're talking about "separate but not better". We're talking about a culture, Judaism, with distinct and important ideas about how life should be lived. We have our own views about that, as does everyone else. You won't find an "American" idea of how to live for example, but rather you'll find the idea in America that within a certain range (meaning as long as you aren't harming others) you can live however you want. No difference here - Jews don't seek to tell others what to do (well, reasonable ones don't and I think most Jews are reasonable).
"So I prefer to ignore the things I don't identify with, but things that are really objectionable to me I skip."
Right.
I think that Jews have an obligation to be respectful to their neighbors. But as long as our neighbors and we are not advocating harm against each other, your view is correct - we are all free to ignore what we disagree with. THat's how freedom works.
Being a goy is not really so great. I've had experience.
And I will agree that Judaism does promote intolerance.
LNM,
"The chauvinistic view of Jews as a chosen people is the majority opinion among Orthodox Jews."
I honestly don't know if that is true, though the specific numbers don't matter inasmuch as I agree that it is a commonly held view. Modern Orthodoxy very widely accepts non-chauvinistic interpretations. The choice is yours to harp on the mistakes of one segment of Jewish tradition rather than embracing interpretations that move it forward.
"Pretty good. Is this your own idea or is there a midrash I should be looking up?"
I'm not sure. I could have just made it up, but it seems so neat that I probably got it from somewhere. In any case it's a perfectly viable explanation that doesn't infer that goyim are "darkness."
"Orthoprax, I think it's pretty clear that I don't want to live an "observant" life."
No? I thought you were turning around, at least nominally for your wife's sake.
"What you call "looking for positive ways to understand what you do" I call "rationalizing" and "making excuses". I don't believe that god gave the Torah to man on a mountain-top so, why would I invest energy in twisting the Torah to fit with my 21st century ideals?"
Indeed, you shouldn't. The Torah ought to firstly be understood from within the context of its time period. But Judaism is larger than just the Pentateuch or even the Talmud and as a Jew living within an ongoing tradition I would suggest that it is in your interests to connect with your heritage and even your duty to make it relevant in your life. Being creative and understanding Judaism in modern ways is what it means to be a living tradition.
"I point out problems in Orthodoxy for a number of reasons. One of which is I believe in the idea that "sunshine is the best disinfectant"."
You point out problems but offer no solutions. That's acting helpless.
"I don't want Judaism to be what I want it to be. My opinion shouldn't matter. I just want to understand the Truth about my existence. If Judaism has the answer then, great! However, if it doesn't then I'm not going to try to shape it into what I want."
I don't believe Judaism is an answer book - it is a process for understanding the questions. The answers people reach through Judaism are often rather varied.
The palace of Judaism is built by Jews. It's ok to be critical, but do your fair share of building too.
> I would suggest that it is in your interests to connect with your heritage and even your duty to make it relevant in your life. Being creative and understanding Judaism in modern ways is what it means to be a living tradition.
Duty to make it relevant in my life? Why? What is the motivation for continuing the chain if what I do will be different from what my grandparents did and my grandchildren will do something different from my practice? Just to keep the broken telephone going? Is it important to cheer for my father's football team to keep that living tradition alive? What's the difference? If a tradition doesn't work for me why should I force it into my life? OJ doesn't allow for much deviation in practice so I think you're suggesting that I simply redefine my intent. If I'm just going to interpret Judaism to mean whatever I want it to mean why don't I just create my own personalized system?
> You point out problems but offer no solutions. That's acting helpless.
It's interesting that that's how you see it. I think the implied solution is plainly obvious.
> I don't believe Judaism is an answer book - it is a process for understanding the questions. The answers people reach through Judaism are often rather varied.
OK, so let's say Judaism is a process for understanding the questions. (Sounds like something James Lipton would say. Or worse, Garrison Keillor). What if I'm comfortable with my handle on the questions? Can I drop the process or do I have to stay committed to the program?
> The palace of Judaism is built by Jews. It's ok to be critical, but do your fair share of building too.
I have no interest in building on a rotten foundation. There are certain ideas that simply need to be ripped out. Maybe I would feel more comfortable in a Reform community, maybe not. I don't know. The commitment to build on top of Orthodoxy implies that there is something inherently correct about Orthodox Judaism. I just don't think that's true.
Shai,
> you can achieve a lot more of what you want from Judaism, if indeed you still want something, by envisioning what you want it to be.
The problem is Orthodox Judaism wants me to sign up for a 120 year contract and I just want to buy minutes as I need them. I'm perfectly happy to find another provider or (to belabor this analogy) develop my own personalized device/service.
If I'm just going to make Judaism into what I want it to be then why should I bother with it in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense to just find my own path free of dogmatic constraint?
"If I'm just going to make Judaism into what I want it to be then why should I bother with it in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense to just find my own path free of dogmatic constraint?"
That's your failed policy now.
The ultimate question is, why be Jewish? Kahane asked this 20 years ago. And unfortunately I don't think anyone's given a decent answer.
"The chauvinistic view of Jews as a chosen people is the majority opinion among Orthodox Jews. This isn't some minor, alternative idea I dug up to attack Orthodoxy. I suppose it's my prerogative to share that opinion but don't pretend that this is anything less than the prevailing position among Orthodox people."
Assuming you're right and not just ignorant so what? What makes the minority view incorrect as representing Judaism correctly?
" you should see that it's intended as a stepwise progression of distinctions that lead to the very act of Havdalah.
I'm glad to see a least someone was able to give a half-decent take on havdalah. Pretty good. Is this your own idea or is there a midrash I should be looking up?"
How about the literal view. For your view you just go for it. For the poshut pshat you want proof.
" I'm interested in reality, no matter how harsh and cold it may be."
No it's not. You want reality your way, not as it is. You want every thing your way.
"Wow, what a post. MLK would be proud."
No he wouldn't. I find it offensive that he is being used by you guys instead of being learned from. You both preach bigotry in the name of love. MLK was making his speech to Gentiles. For you that was unnecessary.
As for the analogy of DR. J a better analogy is simply any religion saying it god seperated them from others. Christians say they are G-d's people. The Protestant Fundamentalists yet say that if you believe in Jesus you are in G-d's image. I'm not offended.
"The Candy Man said...
The ultimate question is, why be Jewish? Kahane asked this 20 years ago. And unfortunately I don't think anyone's given a decent answer."
Will you say Jesus was just a human being with his own flaws too or is that too much for you a supposed Jew?
LNM,
Now you're just playing games with me. I'm not speaking generally - I'm speaking to you as an individual. There are things I can tell to other people, but clearly you're not willing to be receptive to those types of things.
For you, that fact is that you are not going to leave your wife over this so you have the choice to endlessly bellyache, point out problems and be miserable or get with the program and work on a positive, constructive conception of the Judaism you practice.
If you truly believe Judaism has no redeeming features then you ought to - no, you have a moral imperative to! - jettison the whole thing, divorce your wife and get lost in general society just like every other assimilated Jew.
I'm trying to help you but if you're just going to jerk me around then stop talking tough and solve your problem yourself already. It's easy - just walk away from it all. Go ahead. What are you waiting for?
>Will you say Jesus was just a human being with his own flaws too
Yes, I am sure he was. Just another person, like you and me.
I have yet to meet anyone who isn't just another person, a monkey like the rest of us.
Oooo-eeee-eee-ee!
A bit off topic: sdr and RG,
Are you the same person?
Orthoprax,
> Now you're just playing games with me... I'm trying to help you but if you're just going to jerk me around then stop talking tough and solve your problem yourself already. It's easy - just walk away from it all. Go ahead. What are you waiting for?
Wow. Where do I even start?
I never asked for your help. Like Rabban Gamliel, you have this idea that at some point I did. You started this discussion by dishing out unsolicited mussar (5:50 PM). I responded by challenging your assumptions about my situation and we got into this discussion/argument. Now when I question some of the ideas you're putting out you cry foul. I've been arguing in good faith. What gives?
You claim you're speaking to me as an individual. But then why all the drama when I explain that your ideas don't make sense to me. Face it, you're not interested in my point of view as an individual, you just want me to swallow your brilliance whole.
LNM,
Hardly. I don't care about the brilliance of my ideas but about the unnaccounted sourness of your attitude.
The single most key idea I'm promoting is the value of a Jew for his Jewish identity and heritage. I'm just not buying you being as blase about that as you were presenting. If you are then you should just walk away from it all. I don't know why you haven't already.
Orthoprax,
> The single most key idea I'm promoting is the value of a Jew for his Jewish identity and heritage.
Your idea of "Jewish identity and heritage" is practicing "Orthodox Judaism". I get the distinct impression that retaining a Jewish identity by being Reform or Conservative isn't what you're advocating. The bottom line is you haven't made the case for why orthopraxy should be compelling to an atheist.
> I'm just not buying you being as blase about that as you were presenting.
I practiced Orthodox my entire life to serve god. Now that I don't believe in god the reason for my service is gone. I've tried it. I've done it. I don't get anything out of it. I'm not just shrugging practice off, it simply doesn't make sense to me.
The fact is I will probably always retain a Jewish identity. Just as I will probably forever have some sense of Lubavitch identity. These aren't parts of your psyche you can just drop. But the fact I have some Lubavitch identity isn't a reason for me to keep learning chasidus everyday. The same goes for any Orthodox practice.
> If you are then you should just walk away from it all. I don't know why you haven't already.
Please. You know exactly why I haven't walked away. I have a wife who I want to be with who cares very much about being Orthodox. If I could just walk away of course I would.
LNM, I'm saying that if you want to purchase by the minute, it's like being a consumer of Judaism. The product doesn't work that way. I like to use the metaphor of a "family business" - yes, in your family business, let's say it's paper towels, you'll by those towels from your business even though the towels at Walmart are cheaper. Why? Because it's your family's business, it offers you and your children an opportunity for greater autonomy than you'd get shopping elsewhere, with greater chances for reward, and all that's required in return is to note that if Walmart's selling cheaper, you figure out what you can do better and you go about doing it. You have a greater stake in making your family business better in the long run than abandoning it for what is momentarily advantageous.
So, again I reiterate that your frustations seem to be in that Judaism isn't providing you "the Answer". The problem is as well that Judaism behaves as though it has "the" answer. I think it has answerS for Jews, and we have to pick through the options for what suits us best. I'm not saying make Judaism in your own image per se, I'm saying that it has enough flexibility within it that you should be able to find a space you feel comfortable in. But you have to be willing to expend the effort, and declare a truce.
One thing I really admire about skeptics generally is that they care enough about the matter to spend the time to discuss it. I many times don't agree with their conclusions, but their search comes from a good place. I think it's important to realize though that there is a difference between "asking" questions and "saying" questions. If you're genuinely searching, I think you'll find what you want, without having to leave or look elsewhere. It's really up to you, as I suspect you already know.
"> If you are then you should just walk away from it all. I don't know why you haven't already.
Please. You know exactly why I haven't walked away. I have a wife who I want to be with who cares very much about being Orthodox. If I could just walk away of course I would."
So instead you walk into the kitchen with your Tefillin on to give her the wrong impression. I'm not so sure you would simply walk away. As a rebel Jew you get attention. As a Gentile wannabe you're nothing.
"Wow. Where do I even start?
I never asked for your help. Like Rabban Gamliel, you have this idea that at some point I did."
You said you wanted input because you said you were searching to try to please your wife. So of course it meant you ostensibly wanted help. You don't want help. You just want to be right no matter what.
"The Candy Man said...
>Will you say Jesus was just a human being with his own flaws too
Yes, I am sure he was. Just another person, like you and me.
I have yet to meet anyone who isn't just another person, a monkey like the rest of us.
Oooo-eeee-eee-ee!"
Just another person with his own flaws? Is it to much for you to say that?
"The Candy Man said...
A bit off topic: sdr and RG,
Are you the same person?"
No. We don't even have the same writing style.
Unsolicited mussar you told Orthoprax. You give us unsolicited mussar. You have to be right about everything and do whatever you want without judgments. Only freedom like an animal. Didn't you already have an adolescence?
> You said you wanted input because you said you were searching to try to please your wife. So of course it meant you ostensibly wanted help.
Of course?!?! Your logic is faulty. When a store puts up a suggestion box they aren't asking customers for help with their taxes. The same thing here. If I ask for suggestions regarding a particular topic then that's exactly what I mean.
Further, when someone puts a suggestion in the box they shouldn't expect the store to automatically change their policy. It would also be foolish to get pissed off at the store management for not necessarily seeing eye-to-eye with the customer.
Candyman said:
"The ultimate question is, why be Jewish? Kahane asked this 20 years ago. And unfortunately I don't think anyone's given a decent answer."
The only truly logical answer I can come up with, although not very emotionally satisfying, is Prof. Leibovits' answer: Values don't have a rationale. Values in general do have a purpose: to allow human beings to get along with one another. But beyond that, the specific values that I adopt? They're my choice. So if I'm a good Dad, or liberal, or generous, or strict, or whatever-- can I logically justify why they are "correct"? No.
Once one has decided to be a Jew, with regards to alternatives within Judaism, obviously they are a choice, too, and then you have the look at the pros and cons of each. I would posit the values of modern orthodoxy as being an excellent choice in that they are a. "authentic"; b. promote intellectual honesty and development; c. promote good community life, tempered by a reasonable degree of personal autonomy; d. put the onus of responsibility for choice on the individual, rather than the rabbi. e. allow for participation in broader national and civic life; f. allow for change, albeit slow.
The hole in all of this, of course, is that if you don't believe in God, why bother. You can either be in a state of "suspended disbelief" or opt for agnosticism.
LNM,
"Your idea of "Jewish identity and heritage" is practicing "Orthodox Judaism". I get the distinct impression that retaining a Jewish identity by being Reform or Conservative isn't what you're advocating."
Actually I have no real problem with actively practicing Conservative or Reform Jews. I think they miss the ideal for other reasons, but philosophically I have no objection to their approach. However, the sad fact is that many (most?) nominally Conservative or Reform Jews are not actively Jewish.
"The bottom line is you haven't made the case for why orthopraxy should be compelling to an atheist."
True, because I haven't attempted to do so. We've discussed metaphysics before. You were likewise not compelled there. An important point in my view of things is that there is little *compulsion* one way or the other, but the door is open.
"I'm not just shrugging practice off, it simply doesn't make sense to me."
It's not just practice - it's Judaism that you're shrugging off. You likened it your father's football team! You think the intrinsic structure is morally wanting. If that's how you feel about Judaism then you should leave it.
Either change your attitude or you're going to make yourself and your wife miserable.
"The fact is I will probably always retain a Jewish identity. Just as I will probably forever have some sense of Lubavitch identity. These aren't parts of your psyche you can just drop."
And here's another key point. A Jewish identity cannot exist long in passive form. Do you care if your children are Jewish? Your grandchildren? Unless you add something of yourself into Judaism, your initial capital will be diluted.
Being a Jew should not be just a dry personal tidbit, but an active part of one's being. If you don't exercise Judaism, it weakens and atrophies.
"Please. You know exactly why I haven't walked away. I have a wife who I want to be with who cares very much about being Orthodox. If I could just walk away of course I would."
Would you? Well I think that would be your loss, but no matter. I made the point before about your wife but you made no response.
If you do intend to remain married and therefore maintain a level of observance the choice is yours to be miserable and cynical about what you do every day or create a space for yourself within your practice so you can gain from it. I'm trying to help you build that space, but so far I think you'd prefer being miserable.
drj, I hear what you are saying about values not having to need a reason. But that's not a very strong argument for Judaism. Perhaps we should just be humanists and relegate Judaism to more of a cultural/historical role.
RG, I thought it was clear enough when I said Jesus was just another monkey like the rest of us. Apparently not. So, here goes: Jesus had flaws! He made mistakes just like everybody else. Probably on a daily basis.
drj, you once spoke of Jewish survival. Others here point out that many Conservative and Reform Jews are not very involved. I think it's all connected... they have not been given a good reason to be Jewish.
We must create a sustainable Judaism, if this thing is going to survive and mean anything at all. And the first step is to give people a real reason to be Jews.
"We must create a sustainable Judaism, if this thing is going to survive and mean anything at all. And the first step is to give people a real reason to be Jews."
Spot on, and I'd add a real reason to teach our values to the next generation, who will see that as a "real reason". At some point the real reason of past generations didn't suffice for many of us. Ask yourself why. I think it's because the question is in a passive sense - "give me" a reason rather than "I'll take" a reason. We wait for it.
Judaism requires heavy lifting. I imagine it's like that for all religions. If we behave as though "the answer" falls down on us from the sky, we shouldn't be surprised that when it doesn't we ask for a "real reason to be Jews".
"I hear what you are saying about values not having to need a reason. But that's not a very strong argument for Judaism. Perhaps we should just be humanists and relegate Judaism to more of a cultural/historical role."
Moral relativism is not so logical either. So what if we don't "know" "the answer"? What's more important is a set of values we agree on as a basis for our interactions. I think where Judaism succeeds more than other religions is in its syncretistic approach to values - the examination of solutions to problems where our values conflict, and our attempts to "square the circle" by seeking sources for our views in our religious literature.
You could say that this is a cultural feature of Jews, and thus our morals are a cultural rather than a religious feature. I don't really see the difference. I think that what's important is the process - that we concern ourselves with morals and integrate it with our daily lives (if we do Judaism properly). I think, therefore, that "the answer" is something that we work out as a life time process, and for each of us the answer will be somewhat different.
"We must create a sustainable Judaism, if this thing is going to survive and mean anything at all. And the first step is to give people a real reason to be Jews."
Does a Muslim need a reason why he is Muslim, or a Chinese? That's just who he is. That the nation part of being Jewish. The religion part, well, modern orthodoxy is sustainable. Conservative, Humanistic and Reform , less so, no matter how much I might agree with their stated theology. OR-- join the Jewish Nation in Israel!!
Why be a Jew? You may as well ask "Why breathe".
I've got tons of reasons.
Of course?!?! Your logic is faulty. When a store puts up a suggestion box they aren't asking customers for help with their taxes. The same thing here. If I ask for suggestions regarding a particular topic then that's exactly what I mean."
Suggestions means asking for help.
"Further, when someone puts a suggestion in the box they shouldn't expect the store to automatically change their policy."
Who expected you for sure to change?
"It would also be foolish to get pissed off at the store management for not necessarily seeing eye-to-eye with the customer."
That was your department. We weren't because you didn't listen to us. We're not your parents. We were if at all turned off by you because you play games.
"RG, I thought it was clear enough when I said Jesus was just another monkey like the rest of us. Apparently not. So, here goes: Jesus had flaws! He made mistakes just like everybody else. Probably on a daily basis."
No you weren't clear enough. If one is of Christian origin that topic is not very often thought of or expressed because one is still then used to him as a god emotinally.
>And the first step is to give people a real reason to be Jews.
You will never find an all encompassing reason for everyone. Even if you find a reason that YOU believe in others will not.
Dr. Jay's reason about it being a Jew's culture is good enough for those with a Jewish culture. For someone like JP that's not good enough. But the type of morality and value system we are used to in the West has its origins in Judaism and so has attractive points beyond its original constinuency but as Holy Hyrax says what works for one may not work for another. But it's not so simple for the nonbelieving side either. The issue of values in the face of most forms of atheism is a challenge to nonbelievers. If all we have is what we can see, touch, smell, hear, and taste then forget about values. You can impose them by force but they have no real existence.
I'm liking this discussion and think it's productive.
> you haven't made the case for why orthopraxy should be compelling to an atheist.
>> True, because I haven't attempted to do so.
Well, are you speaking to me as an individual or not? You're the one volunteering your wisdom and also the one getting upset when it's being questioned.
> An important point in my view of things is that there is little *compulsion* one way or the other, but the door is open.
I find this hard to believe. If you really felt there was little compulsion either way then you wouldn't have gotten so upset that I questioned the motivation for following tradition. You're clearly passionate that there is a compelling reason to be Jewish.
> It's not just practice - it's Judaism that you're shrugging off. You likened it your father's football team! You think the intrinsic structure is morally wanting.
Actually, I likened "blind commitment to tradition" to "following my father's football team".
I don't know where you get the idea that I think Judaism is morally wanting. I think Judaism isn't based on what it claims to be based on (word of god handed to man at Sinai) and I think it has some major flaws in it but I didn't say it is "intrinsically morally wanting". You're putting words in my mouth.
> Either change your attitude or you're going to make yourself and your wife miserable.
Before you dispense any more marriage advice I recommend you actually spend some time being married.
> A Jewish identity cannot exist long in passive form. Do you care if your children are Jewish? Your grandchildren?
No. I don't care if my kids or their kids are Jewish. There are more important things in life.
> If you do intend to remain married and therefore maintain a level of observance the choice is yours to be miserable and cynical about what you do every day or create a space for yourself within your practice so you can gain from it. I'm trying to help you build that space, but so far I think you'd prefer being miserable.
I'll give you that I can be cynical about Judaism but, who's miserable? I'm trying to create my own way of living. I try to avoid doing the things that I don't believe in but, my situation means I still have to navigate being Jewish. That doesn't mean I have to make excuses for things I think are stupid or immoral. As I've said before, nobody asked you for your help.
As best I can tell, the whole philosophy you are recommending is a carefully balanced house of cards. If I think of the universe in this particular way, and then if I think of god as defined by such and such, then probably Judaism is from god, and therefore most-likely Orthodox Judaism is the way to live, but think of Orthodoxy within this framework. Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, not very compelling. You don't need Judaism to justify your philosophy or to create a system of personal growth. Billions of non-Jews do it every single day.
LBN,
Obviously you don't understand my philosophy and obviously I've misunderstood you.
Feel free to wipe your feet on the heritage of your people as you walk out of Jewish history. Good night.
> Feel free to wipe your feet on the heritage of your people as you walk out of Jewish history.
Always with the drama.
Lubab said: "No. I don't care if my kids or their kids are Jewish. There are more important things in life."
A long time ago in an earlier post someone posted a comment about the role of emotions being ignored.
I truly think that is the bottom line. If you're a Jew, and you like and feel close to the Jewish people, you will do more things for them. If you don't, you won't. Its that simple, it can't be argued morally, logically or philosophically.
I decided that I like Judaism and the Jewish people, that's my family, and even though I don't believe in many of the Orthodox myths, I wish to remain part of this family and tradition. We maintain a modern Orthodox lifestyle. My kids are being brought up that way with good results, each one believes a little differently, but they all value their Judaism.
You could care or not care whether your kids will be Jews, and maybe in the larger scheme of things it doesn't matter. But I think that after you get past your anger and disappointment with religion (perhaps for misleading you), than you will be able to have a warmer place in your heart for Jews and Judaism.
DrJ,
> I truly think that is the bottom line. If you're a Jew, and you like and feel close to the Jewish people, you will do more things for them. If you don't, you won't. Its that simple, it can't be argued morally, logically or philosophically.
Agreed.
I also want to clarify that I'm not against all of Judaism. I'm against specific values and ideas taught by Orthodox Judaism.
well said DrJ. Not everyone realizes the emotional pain a person feels when their cherished world view is upturned by reason. It can take a while to recover and regain some perspective
"Actually, I likened "blind commitment to tradition" to "following my father's football team"."
By nature you are into blind commitment. You simply accept certain things as true but are not rigorous with it. You have values but you've burned every bridge on which it can be realistically based. It seems you are passionate when your beliefs are questioned so you turn arguments into personal ones but don't in addition present much more than statements of what you believe.
"I don't know where you get the idea that I think Judaism is morally wanting. I think Judaism isn't based on what it claims to be based on (word of god handed to man at Sinai) and I think it has some major flaws in it but I didn't say it is "intrinsically morally wanting"."
No you just think it is morally wanting. What's so hard to see where people would get the idea you are thinking Judaism is morally wanting? On what basis do you find anything moral or immoral? Does morality and ethics have binding power? Isn't it all just a bunch of chemicals causing you to feel you have to come up with some system to feel chemically alright with yourself? That's all science in a nutshell can tell you about it.
"As I've said before, nobody asked you for your help."
You kind of did. You said you are looking to reexamine Judaism and so asked for any input. Then you said you can't find anything and that's that. You get very passionate and personal if your beliefs are questioned so you did your best to attack orthoprax on a personal level instead of dealing with his charges. You seem more passionate than him.
Rabban Gamliel,
> "Actually, I likened "blind commitment to tradition" to "following my father's football team"."
>> By nature you are into blind commitment. You simply accept certain things as true but are not rigorous with it.
We were talking about "blind commitment to tradition". Not simply "blind commitment" or "faith" or "reasonable assumptions".
> On what basis do you find anything moral or immoral?
We've been down this road before. Your definition of moral requires authority from god. I don't believe in god. We have different definitions what moral means. There is no way we can agree on this topic. No sense in wasting both our time trying to find common ground.
> Does morality and ethics have binding power? Isn't it all just a bunch of chemicals causing you to feel you have to come up with some system to feel chemically alright with yourself?
Maybe. Maybe not.
>> "As I've said before, nobody asked you for your help."
> You kind of did. You said you are looking to reexamine Judaism and so asked for any input. Then you said you can't find anything and that's that.
I asked to be sent input... three months ago... via email. I was underwhelmed by the response. I had serious discussions with the people who contacted me and who I contacted. Like I said then "I'm not willing to compromise on what I believe (logic, reason)". If someone wants to offer their POV I want to understand the reasoning behind it. That's only fair.
But again, "input" doesn't equal "help". Granted, they are similar, but they are not the same. I'll try another analogy. There is a difference between a) asking someone to recommend movies to rent and b) asking for help picking out a video. I'm looking for suggestions, not to be followed around Blockbuster.
> You get very passionate and personal if your beliefs are questioned so you did your best to attack orthoprax on a personal level instead of dealing with his charges. You seem more passionate than him.
Maybe you were reading a different exchange. My personal beliefs weren't the topic of discussion. The debate centered on Orthoprax's unsolicited mussar/advice. I responded to his positions, presented arguments and asked questions. I attacked his unwillingness to engage in a discussion he began. Passion is great, especially if it's backed up with a reasoned argument (see: Obama). But acting like a drama queen in place of making your case is grounds for teasing.
Fairly fair a response at least. You must have eaten your vegetables. In any event while Orthoprax's Achilles heel maybe his search for an alternative to Orthodoxy your Achilles heel is that you have a value system without a basis for it. It doesn't help telling me we have different definitions. I'm talking concepts here not semantics.
LNM,
I'm perfectly willing to engage in real debate but with you here and now it is futile. You do not value your Jewish identity, your Jewish heritage or Jewish practice. It's something you just have, are stuck with and now have to "navigate" around.
You've made it clear that Judaism is basically something you'd prefer to avoid rather than embrace so where the hell am I supposed to direct you from that starting point? Yours is an attitude problem which is not amenable to argument.
If I'm wrong then tell me now. What, if anything, in Judaism do you connect with? What about it do you like? What do you wish to maintain? Tell me, if you weren't constrained by marriage would you really just walk out on Jewish history? If so then I wasn't being dramatic, I was simply being accurate.
Ortho,
> You've made it clear that Judaism is basically something you'd prefer to avoid rather than embrace so where the hell am I supposed to direct you from that starting point?
You're not supposed to direct me. I didn't ask you. You offered your advice when it wasn't welcome. I choose to engage because I thought you might have something interesting to say (you often do) but then you got all pissy when I didn't embrace your ideas. As you noted, I don't possess the prerequisites for the belief system you were advocating. You made that assumption.
> Tell me, if you weren't constrained by marriage would you really just walk out on Jewish history? If so then I wasn't being dramatic, I was simply being accurate.
Your hilarious line "Feel free to wipe your feet on the heritage of your people as you walk out of Jewish history" has got to be the most theatrical thing ever written on my blog by an intelligent person. Seriously, I think I laughed out loud.
LNM,
Like I said before, not accepting my ideas does not bother me. What bothered me was that I completely misjudged your goals and intentions.
In any case, what I wrote can be both dramatic and true.
Ok LNM why don't you feel any attachment to your Jewishness? It's peculiar. It seems to be an attitude you cultivate. I'm not sure if it's a real deep down attitude or something you want to cultivate. To Gentiles you will be Jewish. You have people who are not Orthodox and still as much as they are accepted they are still the Jews to the Gentiles they know. I don't know if chucking your Jewishness would be a realistic option for you. You have some deep seated subjective issues that cause you to want to chuck what is a piece of yourself. That's never healthy.
> What bothered me was that I completely misjudged your goals and intentions. - Orthoprax
> why don't you feel any attachment to your Jewishness? - RG
OK, you guys are still making assumptions and misjudging goals or whatever.
To be clear, I'm not against having a Jewish identity. The issue is I'm not interested in practicing religious or Orthodox Judaism. This is implied in my previous comments but I suppose could have underscored this point. Let me put it another way:
I'm not interested in being a "Rosh HaShana/Yom Kippur Jew". But "Bagel & Lox Jew"? Pass the cream cheese!
"I'm not interested in being a "Rosh HaShana/Yom Kippur Jew". But "Bagel & Lox Jew"? Pass the cream cheese!"
And you don't care about your kids being Jewish too. Ergo, as I said way before, you are just a doorway away from being like every other assimilated Jew in America.
LNM,
The gemara says (Peasachim 104a) that during havdalah it is preferable that one should mention between three and seven different types of "divisions". However, all of these "divisions" must be mentioned in the Torah. The gemara lists these seven as:
1. Between sacred and secular (Vayikra 10:10),
2. Between light and darkness (Bereshis 1:4),
3. Between Israel and the nations (Vayikra 20:26),
4. Between impure and pure (Vayikra 10:10 & 11:47),
5. Between the higher waters and lower waters (Bereshis 1:7),
6. Between Levites and Israelites (Devarim 10:8),
7. Between Priests and Levites (Divrei Hayomim I 23:13).
In light of the above, your assumption that we are trying to compare the subjects in the first halves to each other, and likewise with the other halves, is clearly incorrect.
> you are just a doorway away from being like every other assimilated Jew in America.
See? Same message, no drama. You're learning.
Wasnt MLK the guy who cheated on his wife slep around and had many kids out of wed lock. truly a great example to/of the black community. Happy MLK day
Anonymous,
JFK inspired America to go to the moon his personal life notwithstanding. Don't confuse the message with the failings of the messenger.
BTW this post was predictable. Though I thought it would have come sooner than the 71st comment. Apparently it's never too late for racist generalizing. ("great example to/of the black community") Very brave of you to post anonymously.
I didn't read all the comments here, but I'm gonna guess you don't spit during aleinu like the guys in our shul :)
Post a Comment