This exchange is really incredible. I found it thrilling, and even a little bit embarrassing. As Jews, are we really ready for prime time? Do we deserve this moderator, himself a non-Jew, challenging Obama on our behalf? Deep down, I think this is hardly an issue that's worth national attention. Still, I was touched and thrilled to see it on national TV.
Only in America.
Obama's response was thrilling, too (the good stuff starts around 3:11 in the clip). To see him credit Jews, of all people, for such a big part of his campaign... you could tell he was speaking from the heart. I loved this statement:
... What I want to do is rebuild what I consider to be a historic relationship between the African American community and the Jewish community. I would not be sitting here were it not for a whole host of Jewish Americans who supported the civil rights movement and helped to ensure that justice was served in the South.For Obama, who rarely talks about race, this was a very emotionally open moment. He stood up for himself beautifully, citing the challenge he made to a church full of African Americans on MLK day to confront the anti-Semitism within their midst. I for one heard him make the challenge at the time and was greatly impressed by it.
Now, Obama is not Jewish, he's black. He can challenge the African American community to do their share, but it's not his place to challenge Jews. That burden falls upon us. The vast majority of Jews are not racist -- as Obama pointed out, Jews were major supporters of civil rights. Yet in my last post about Obama, we got gems like this in the comments:
I am not a racist but I don't think a colored person can handle running this country.There were worse things said there, too, including one person who thought he was funny to use the S word. Now, I think 99% of all Jews aren't racist, and that's to our credit. But I think it's a stretch to say that Jews, as a group, have close ties to the black community. How many close friends of yours are Jewish? Now, how many are black? Maybe what Obama is suggesting is that we try to bridge that gap. Whatever bad blood has come between us, we have had ample time to heal. If we can come together, perhaps we are not doomed to repeat the tragedies of the past. In this vein, a new Jewish-black alliance is forming in New York City.
One of the ironies of post-civil rights America is the self-segregation of racial minorities. Racism feeds upon segregation, the lack of interaction between separate groups. It's much harder to hate a group when you have good friends within that group. For Jews, interacting with non-Jews can be a struggle. Some rabbis might even say it's dangerous. But it's one of the most important things we can do. It's important for them, it's important for us, and it's important to who we are and what we are becoming. A Judaism that is 99% by-Jews for-Jews is only 1% relevant to the rest of the world. For Judaism to be sustainable, we must make it more inclusive, more relevant. We can start by reaching out to blacks, to Muslims, to non-Jews, and even to fellow Jews we have pushed away. Let's rediscover the humanism within the Judaism. Let's raise the bar in our own communities. Obama can't do it alone.
26 comments:
I think things can change when the "fear" factor of blacks is eliminated. Blacks, have much to play in that role.
I think that's true. Many Black youth nowadays are drawn to looking tough, dressing provocatively and are otherwise drawn into a culture that puts value on "street cred" rather than education and social success. I can't help but feel wary when they intentionally dress up to look like criminals.
Of course this isn't true across the board and I've had many black colleagues and professors or other superiors that I respect and other fellows that I've been friendly with. Obama's race is a non-issue for me and I would earnestly anticipate a revival in Black-Jewish relations.
> Now, I think 99% of all Jews aren't racist,
I think your statement is wishful, but wrong. The percentage of racists in Judaism is either much higher, or I have met many, many members of the racist 1%.
HH,
> I think things can change when the "fear" factor of blacks is eliminated. Blacks, have much to play in that role.
I think you're underestimating the role prejudice plays in the fear of African-Americans. What do you think are some of the things Black people do to create a fear factor or what can they (theoretically) do to eliminate one?
Orthoprax,
> Many Black youth nowadays... I can't help but feel wary when they intentionally dress up to look like criminals.
What kind of clothes do criminals dress in exactly?
"We can start by reaching out to blacks, to Muslims, to non-Jews,..."
We can have friendly relations but it's not going to change attitudes towards Jews. We haven't done enough damage to other groups to make a difference either for love or hate and through most of the world they hate us anyway. We live in the U.S. and should be grateful because it is an anomaly of goodness to the Jew.
>So you're afraid of baggy pants and do-rags? I don't see what the chiddush is about teenagers trying to act tough.
Are you purposfly being difficult? Even white kids wore baggy pants. Its not the pants. Its the whole attitude of trying to act tough in the manner of gangs that puts fear in people.
>Kids dress like, and want to be, 50 Cent because he's worth over a 100 million dollars (Forbes link), not because he was arrested for selling cocaine.
Thats irrelevent. And when kids used to dress like Easy-E or early gangster rap? Obviously its because they are popular. But that fame identity comes with baggage and its not to sit around playing scrabbble. I know many people that started off imitating early gang clothes cause they wanted to be cool and be popular and eventually joined some of the real gangs and dropped out.
>I am sure there are people out there who want to be gangsters when they grow up but most people just want to have a job and live their life.
So what? Like I said, I don't have a hatred toward blacks, but in the where I lived, the San Fernando Valley, gangs have been on the rise there. Gangs that are predominetly black and mexican. You can't just get rid of this fear that is only natural that has been accumulating during your whole experience of schooling.
>But you need to make a distinction between "poor neighborhoods" and "Black neighborhoods". The two are not synonymous.
Where I come from, the poor neighborhoods are predominately black and hispanic, and these places are what attracts the gangs.
>So are you afraid of Blacks, or Mexicans, or gangs? Or are you saying that it is reasonable to be afraid of all Blacks because some Black people are part of gangs?
Like everyone, I am afraid of trouble makers. The worst are the gangs that are mexican and blacks.
Candyman asked what can blacks do to elimanate this fear and I am answering. To the observer, finding your mentors and embracing partly a culture that is filled with boozing, gang life, popping peoples heads off, does not look so good.
>(Correct me if I'm wrong).
The apartment that we saw was not located in Compton or south central. It was as normal looking as the place we are now. Like I said, it was just across the street. But, I would not live there, because even in those areas, like in the San Fernando Valley, a lot of bad shit goes on, and I am not about to take a chance investigating whether each neighbor has an ivy league diploma.
Now does this mean that EVERY neighborhood that is inbetween "Poor" and "Well Off" is bad? No, of course not. I lived in places that were very mixed, and I loved it. But places that are mostly only black (or hispanic) I will not take that chance.
>You say you have a "natural fear" but I think people make illogical associations between the handful of Black criminals they see on the evening news and the hundreds and hundreds of Black citizens they see everyday going to work.
Its not illogical at all. If you live in a city where there is a gang infestation, you are naturally going to have fear. Add that with a growing younger generation that loves this perverse culture put on MTV and you start questioning what is going on there?
LNM,
"What kind of clothes do criminals dress in exactly?"
I was referring to the thugish look or persona that many of them assume. Do you honestly not know to what I'm referring?
In general there's a serious problem in the subculture of the lower socioeconomic Black groups. Their school dropout rate it huge. So is their unwed and teen pregnancy, promiscuity, drug abuse and criminality. They revel in poor English and glorify gangsters and murderers.
I'm not saying this because I think Black people are somehow inferior constitutively, I know many Black people of great potential and success, but these are truths of which I am wary. Bill Cosby famously spoke out not too long ago about all these things.
>In general there's a serious problem in the subculture of the lower socioeconomic Black groups.
It's not just lower anymore. The whole "bling-bling"/mafia culture is found in the mid-higher ones as well.
> So what? Like I said, I don't have a hatred toward blacks, but in the where I lived, the San Fernando Valley, gangs have been on the rise there. Gangs that are predominetly black and mexican. You can't just get rid of this fear that is only natural that has been accumulating during your whole experience of schooling.
The problem is that you are applying the experiences you had in a not-so-great neighborhood to a race of people that spans all economic groups. You're setting yourself up to misjudge (or prejudge) Black people.
> The apartment that we saw was not located in Compton or south central. It was as normal looking as the place we are now. Like I said, it was just across the street. But, I would not live there, because even in those areas, like in the San Fernando Valley, a lot of bad shit goes on, and I am not about to take a chance investigating whether each neighbor has an ivy league diploma.
I'm not sure why you think you need to get the CV of everyone in your neighborhood but you do have a responsibility to your family to investigate a community before you move into it. I wouldn't move into an Orthodox community before spending some time there (at least a Shabbos), and asking around, and getting peoples impression of the place. writing off a location solely on the skin color of people who live there is simply racist.
> But places that are mostly only black (or hispanic) I will not take that chance.
This is at best ignorant, and at worst racist.
I understand that you think you are justified in being fearful of Black people because of your experiences. I can't tell you if your reaction is natural or nurtured. What you take from your experiences is your decision. If you want to apply "your impression of Black people with whom you interacted with in San Fernando Valley" to "all Black people everywhere", that's your prerogative but don't tell me it's logical.
>The problem is that you are applying the experiences you had in a not-so-great neighborhood to a race of people that spans all economic groups.
When did I do this?
Each of us live according to our experiences. Had I lived in a smaller city where this does not go on, it would probably be much different.
>and asking around, and getting peoples impression of the place. writing off a location solely on the skin color of people who live there is simply racist.
See, this is exactly what I said I WASEN'T doing. Its not about the color. Its about largely that even regular communities that have a very large Black population has a problem with its youth and other people that it attracts. If it was a mixed community, trust me, I would not care. And I can assure you, that if you were home searching and found your way to a neighborhood that is predominately black, you would have hesitation as well. As much as you say it, I very much doubt you would live there or send your child to a school in there. Again, we are talking about large metropolitan areas, which most of us are familiar with.
>This is at best ignorant, and at worst racist.
It's very easy to just name call and call people racist especially now a days. I think people simply want to waive of peoples experiences as illogical, but you we all live according to our experiences, especially when they keep repeating themselves. Did I say ALL blacks are a bunch of thugs? Of course not. I have had the pleasure of working with black individuals and we always have a blast, but when it comes to culture, I thin the black community has alot to look in the mirror and see what they are allowing inside their homes and communities
Lubabnomore the fact is the Black community has a vast crime problem. It is not racist when people decide just on what they know where to move for whatever reason. If there is a majority black community that defies the expectations of Holy Hyrax when he moves to a place fine, so he would be illogical but if he has only limited info he has to go with what he knows. I wouldn't dare be in France outdoors with a yarmulka. If I receive specific information that where I would happen to be in France is not according to the general report of those Jews who live there I would then feel easy wearing one.
In the affluent Modern Orthodox community of the New York area, there is a prevent superiority complex in some of the teenagers (as for the parents, I am not sure - I can only report what I see). Among the facets of this characterisitic is racism, although this is by no means the only facet of it, so I think the claim that 99% of all Jews are not racist is not too accurate.
>> writing off a location solely on the skin color of people who live there is simply racist.
> See, this is exactly what I said I WASEN'T doing.
Here is the statement of yours that I was referencing "But places that are mostly only black (or hispanic) I will not take that chance." That is writing off a neighborhood based on race. I acknowledge that you said you would live in a mixed community (and have). Why do you feel there is a difference once Black people make up a majority? I'm not saying you should move into a crime-ridden project, (that's just stupid) I'm saying you shouldn't write anything off simply on the basis of race.
> It's very easy to just name call and call people racist especially now a days.
I agree, which is why I didn't suggest it until after you explained your position and said you wouldn't "take that chance" and live in a mostly black community. If an Arab said he "wouldn't take that chance" and live in a mostly Jewish community I would call that antisemitism.
I agree with your post and I think the behavior of Jews in America in supporting Obama can be an object lesson in the treatment of Arabs in Israel.
For those who remember the 1967 riots in Chicago which were very scary , one important factor that calmed Chicago and made it a liveable place is the appearance of blacks in prominent positions. The late Harold Washington, the former mayor of Chicago and Oprah are two examples.
After Jesse Jackson and Sharpton and so many others it is heartwarming to hear a prominent black talk of the role of Jews in the civil rights movement. Obama was barely born when these events took place.
One last thing...no one should minimize the role of David Axelrod and Ram Emmanuel in creating his campaign and positioning him in such an attractive way.If it weren't for them Obama would not be winning.
The Chicago Lakefront liberals including Evanston are 102% behind Obama and have been so from day one.
The question isn't really what black people can do to bring us in. It's more what we can do from our end.
I think this discussion is useful, b/c it highlights some of the perception issues that come up around race. I do think there's a certain judgmentalism in fearing someone because of how they dress. It's very old-school, and not really a Torah way of thinking. Dress and identity have been increasingly decoupled over the last few decades in America.
Gang violence and economic disparity? Now those are real issues that affect everyone. The crucial question is whether, as Jews, there is a specific role we can play here. If it means reallocating some of our resources to help support community programming in poor neighborhoods, so be it. That is one of the easiest ways to combat anti-Semitism.
And yeah, I'd love to see some of these same discussions go on in the realm of Jewish/Muslim or Israeli/Arab relations.
yeah I don't think 99% of jews aren't racist, just like less than 99% of non-jewish white people aren't racist. I suggest looking at the studies of Devah Pager from Princeton, who studies very real race prejudices in hiring practices.
And Look at some of the responses in this thread! And I can not tell you how many times I have heard the N wword (let alone the S word) bandied around in OJ communities. It's sickening. In fact, I used to have dreadlocks, and several times I was approached by members of my family and asked "Why i want to look like a [n-word]" My dad owns a gun because there is a black neighborhood like 6 miles away and he's afraid "of the s-word's rioting like they did in the 1960s". I think he has no conception of the reason they were rioting...for civil rights!
I went to a very racially-mixed college (When I was there it was the third most diverse college in the US) and I am fortunate to live in a very racially-diverse neighborhood now. Places that are 100% white kinda scare me and also piss me off a bit. Black people are just people, and I can garuntee you that the majority of people who live in poor ghettoized neighborhoods that are racially segregated and all black are probably just as scared to live there as you white jewish folks are. Poverty drives people to crime, and that has nothing to do with race. Unfortunately, in the US black people are a lot more likely to be poor, due to racism and discrimination, and the perpetuation of social class.
I know a bunch of you are religious and probably didn't watch the Bill Maher show last night, but Govn. Ed Rendell of PA was on, and had a great thing to say..he said the reason there are such high levels of crime and inequality is that our education system is failing, and that poor youth see no options available to them as a result. Every year computer companies are getting visa's for people from other countries to come work here, while we have plenty of unemployed people in this country who would love those jobs, but have not had the training. Maybe if we can fix the education system so that they are not locally funded (which perpetuates inequalities on the basis of class), and get rid of this retarded no child left behind policy which takes money away from schools that are doing poorly (so backwards), the youth would see the option of better jobs ahead, and would be less inclined to turn to crime as a result.
And don't even get me started on the inequalities in the criminal justice system...for instance, crack, which is a diluted form of a cocaine, holds a higher penalty than cocaine. And who is more likely to use crack? Black people. And who is more likely to use cocaine? White people. let alone differences in arrest rates, and the way police will follow black people around waiting for them to do something wrong, but when catching white people in the act are more likely to just give them a second chance...
in sum, this country is seriously fucked up.
LNM and AE,
My statement that 99% of Jews are not racist may have been overly optimistic. But I'd be surprised if the number was higher for Jews than non-Jewish whites. Does anyone have any statistics on the prevalence of racist or bigoted attitudes among different racial groups (or even just whites) in America? I found a Devah Pager article, which was a good start but didn't really give any hard numbers. Google searches turned up blank.
It's worthwhile to hash out this detail.
As for Orthodox circles, of course that's a different story. I occasionally heard the S-word bandied about in the Orthodox community in which I was raised. This, of course, is the epitome of lashon hara/evil speech. I waited for a long time to hear a Shabbat drasha on this topic from our shul rabbi. It never came.
CM,
"I do think there's a certain judgmentalism in fearing someone because of how they dress. It's very old-school, and not really a Torah way of thinking. Dress and identity have been increasingly decoupled over the last few decades in America."
Judging someone on how they dress isn't some crazy idea and it's usually justified. A clean, neat, well put-together guy wearing a suit is not someone who I think is going to try mugging me. He might go off to his financial business in Manhattan and launder some money, but I don't fear violent crime.
Anyway, I know Maimonides strongly goes on about a person's appearance being important. And even the Talmud Shab 114a:
"R. Hiyya b. Abba said in R. Johanan's name: It is a disgrace for a scholar to go out with patched shoes into the market place. But R. Aha b. Hanina did go out [thus]? — Said R. Aha son of R. Nahman: The reference is to patches upon patches. R. Hiyya b. Abba also said in R. Johanan's name: Any scholar upon whose garment a [grease] stain is found is worthy of death..."
So I do believe that it is a very Jewish way of thinking that a person should put some effort into their appearance and not be "shlumpy."
"We are not parenting. Ladies and gentlemen, listen to these people, they are showing you what’s wrong. People putting their clothes on backwards. –isn’t that a sign of something going on wrong? Are you not paying attention, people with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack. Isn’t that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up. Isn’t it a sign of something when she’s got her dress all the way up to the crack…" - Bill Cosby
"Unfortunately, in the US black people are a lot more likely to be poor, due to racism and discrimination, and the perpetuation of social class."
The main question is what can the Black community do. You don't wait around for a government to assist you (Al Sharpton's way for his community if not himself) you act (Obama's way and the Jewish community's way). As for where Holy Hyrax moves it doesn't seem he is basing it on racism. He is basing it on his current experiences. If the experiences change then the attitude should too to be fair.
>Why do you feel there is a difference once Black people make up a majority?
Because I explained it to you. I think the Black community (that although perhaps fine with them) have allowed a glorification of things that I find abhorant. The young people (which obviously, live in these communities) are part of this growing culture (ie, the negative aspects of rap etc) and I would not want to be around it. I was around it in all my years of public schooling. I can't explain it to you until you see a group of black young people together. Its not pleasent, and I AM sad to say this. Even in the more moderate black communities around where I live there is a higher crime incidents, and the people living there are NOT gang members.
So its not because of the color of the skin, because I said the same applies with hispancs.
>I think he has no conception of the reason they were rioting...for civil rights!
I think they said the same thing after the Rodney King verdict in LA.
>and I am fortunate to live in a very racially-diverse neighborhood now.
So do I, and I love I have no problem with that.
>Places that are 100% white kinda scare me and also piss me off a bit.
Now the question is, would you have a problem living in a 100% black community in an urban city?
>I know a bunch of you are religious and probably didn't watch the Bill Maher show last night, but Govn. Ed Rendell of PA was on, and had a great thing to say..he said the reason there are such high levels of crime and inequality is that our education system is failing, and that poor youth see no options available to them as a result.
I have such a HUGE problem with this and I believe this sort of attidude by Eden is probably a greater cause for the problems then the "failing" education system. Its about excuses and passing the blame. Its so EAAAAASSSSSYYY to blame the education system and that leads to poverty which leads to crime. Maybe its growing fatherless homes in the black communities. Maybe its kids having kids. There is no structure to so many of these young people in these communities. Enough of this bullshit of blaming others for their problems. Until responsiblity is taken for their own action, NOTHING will change. Millions of people go through the same education system. They thrive and do things with their lives. Its about values and responsiblity, not passing the buck along. Like I said, the black communities need to serious chesbon nefesh.
>in sum, this country is seriously fucked up.
Typical. So leave!
I think my whole point is in answering Candyman to my original comment. That everyone, as a culture, including observant Jews need to look at ourselves objectively and see if perhaps we are in fact responsible for people disliking us instead of always claiming anti-semitism. I think the same goes for the black community as well
OP,
Judging someone on how they dress isn't some crazy idea and it's usually justified. A clean, neat, well put-together guy wearing a suit is not someone who I think is going to try mugging me.
As I said, dress and identity has been increasingly decoupled over the years. What I mean is, you talk to some of these folks with tattoos and piercings all over their body, and you'll find them to be some of the nicest people you've ever met. You talk to some of the suits, and they're complete assholes. At least that's what it's like here in California. The thinking behind fashion is so complicated these days. So much of it is irony. What you see as a lack of effort may actually be quite a tailored look. How can you judge by appearances?
So I do believe that it is a very Jewish way of thinking that a person should put some effort into their appearance and not be "shlumpy."
I agree somewhat, but I think there's a fine line between how you present yourself and judging others by that appearance. Here is what I was thinking when I said it's not a Torah point of view:
27. Rabbi Meir used to say: Do not look at the flask but at what is in it; there may be a new flask that is full of old wine and an old flask that does not even have new wine in it. (Avot 4:27)
And it came to pass, when they were come, that he beheld Eliab, and said: 'Surely the LORD'S anointed is before Him.' But the LORD said unto Samuel: 'Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him; for it is not as man seeth: for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.' (I Samuel 16:7-9)
Our matriarch Rebecca, paragon of kindness, had a nose ring.
If you want to cross the street when you see someone dressed in a scary way, I understand. But I for one consider it a major ideal of both Judaism and humanism to give folks the benefit of the doubt and try to not judge books by their covers. Engage the other, so you can learn from him. Easier said than done, of course.
LMN,
Getting back to your post, I think you've missed the point. Obama talks a good game. But what's below the surface? I would be very cautious about him. He's further left than Kennedy, Boxer, Kerry, Durbin, Reid, etc., etc. When he raises your taxes, takes away your civil rights, expands the federal government, defunds the military, and gives Palestinians the aid we're giving now to Israel, you're going to be saying, "Wow, did he have me snookered."
Ichabod Chrain
I love how you say the "S" word. It took me a while to figure out that "S" stands for schvartze. You're all symbolism over substance. You don't say the "s" word but aside from the cleaning lady you've never had an AA in your house.
I on the other hand might come off as a racist but I have several black friends and I'm down with my NIGGAZ! I am a part of black culture. I remember fondly when the first rap album, RAPPER'S DELIGHT came out. We were all into it. You've probably never even heard of it. I'm sick of all you ACLU B. Streisand fakers perpetrating. I'm white, frum and down with all the NIGGAZ in my hood including the janitor at my local yeshiva. He Loves me!
If Barack Hussein wins it will be an Obamanation.
BTW WORD TO YA MOTHER!
SDR, you're right: you come off as a racist.
Candyman
As odd as this may sound, I think SDR is making somewhat of a valid social commentary, whether it was intentional or not :P
SDR,
You're a regular Herbert Kornfeld.
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