As the child of BTs I have a number of non-Jewish (read: goyish) relatives. I think this is fairly common for anyone with non-frum (read: frei) members of their family. Having such a diverse extended-family makes it harder to swallow some of the Jewish ideas I was taught in school.
For example: My racist, ignorant, chasidic grade school rebbeim made it perfectly clear that goyim are different from Jews. For one, we were taught Jews have both a nefesh elokis (godly soul) and a nefesh habahamis (animal soul). Goys on the other hand only have one of those two souls. Can you guess which one?!?! (HINT: It's not godly one!) The message came through loud and clear: "Gentiles are nothing but god-less animals".
We were also taught that when Moshiach (the messiah) comes the goyims will be our servants. When I was much younger this would bring to mind images of my non-Jewish relatives bringing me lemonade on a platter. Now that I'm older it makes me sick to think I was taught such drivel.
On some level I think having non-Jewish relatives made me question some of the basic ideas of Judaism. For example the idea that Jews are "God's Chosen People". If I'm "Chosen" then what does that make my cousin? Chopped liver?! [adjusts tie]
Non-Jews are often vilified as "Them" in Divrei Torah, speeches, and jokes told in the Jewish community. But, when "They" are your loved ones you can't help but question which side you want to be on.
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Update: The comments made me think to link to this older post of mine:
Why Should God Need a Chosen People?
34 comments:
I'm happy you have non-Jewish relatives. Hopefully, with increasing intermarriage, more Jews will end up in your situation and begin to realize that everybody else is actually a lot like them.
For what it's worth, I don't like the term "non-Jew." It's so jewcentric. "Goy," of course, is straight-up racist. And believe me, everybody knows that word.
I've been questioning this "Chosen People" thing more and more lately. I'm really not sure I buy it. It just doesn't make that much sense; why should G-d choose only one people? Why would He?
I have huge issues with this concept, as I grew up with very few Jewish friends, and a lot of my family is also not Jewish. I get extremely offended when I hear things like what you were taught in school, because it is so obviously garbage.
>It just doesn't make that much sense; why should G-d choose only one people? Why would He?
Because God cares about his name. And I think going through a small group, and hoping the message spreads is what the intent is.
HH - you said "hoping the message spreads is what the intent is." I am not really sure I agree with you on that. If that were the case, wouldn't we have more of an imperative to proselytize to non-Jews?
I agree with Miri that it would make much more sense if God gave the torah to the whole world. If it truly is the best way to live and the only "true" way to serve God, why deny 99.99% of the world that "privilege"? Yes, people can convert, but it is clearly not encouraged and sold to the masses.
Candy man - is "goy" really a bad word in itself or is it just because it has a bad connotation?
Rich
Who says the world has to keep Torah? Monotheism, and torah are two separate things. Regardless, I think the point is for US to do the job, and not God handing it out. It's like the story of Abraham. It was through his work that people joined him. It's through our hands. I think God wants us to do some of the work instead of just handing out everything.
goy means nation, but it definitely has been transformed into something derogatory.
I think it is ironic that Chabad so stresses this in their schools, because the main mission of Chabad these days is kiruv, and so inevitably you are going to be dealing with a population of people that have many non-jews in their immediate or extended families.
this post seemed particularly relevant to this discussion, so I'm linking to it. by which I mean, I'm giving you the url bc I still don't know how to link in comments.
http://orthoprax.blogspot.com/2007/11/religious-pluralism-in-12th-century.html
I think you will also have to add how OJ's also feel superior to conservative or reform jews. Actually they feel superior to anyone who is less frum than them, while mocking of those more frum than them.
Social niceties aside, OJ's are convinced that non-religous jews, who are not "tinok shenishba" are going to hell. This theology also existis in MO, but rarely discussed out loud.
When people ask this one, I remember that Star Trek movie where Shatner famously asked, "What does G-d need with a starship?"
While the thing they faced wasn't G-d, it would seem in the Star Trek series that G-d needed the Enterprise to carry a lot of good people around to be in the right place at the right time to take part in momentous events, fighting for the better.
The answer was in the very existence and history of the Enterprise and its crew. In the end, the means justified the end, which is as it should be.
You're chosen if you believe you are, and act accordingly. Remember who it is that's chosen you and what's expected of someone on and about that work.
Subjectivity at work...
I forgot to add an observation after that mention of OJ vs Conservative. So far as I can tell, Conservative is to OJ as Canada is to the US. Like Michael J. Fox's legendary statement on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, "exactly the same... only not as much."
>Actually they feel superior to anyone who is less frum than them, while mocking of those more frum than them.
Its about values. Clearly if I am frum I am going to think my values are superior to someone elses. Thats only natural. I also tend to think the Constitution is more superior to other law texts that other countries might have. So what? As long as I don't putting my nose up in the air and pushing people aside, I don't think there is anything morally wrong with thinking your values are superior to others. I mean, why else have them?
In case anyone thought I was too harsh in calling "Jewish Philosopher" AKA Jacob Stein a moron and a sicko for various comments he made here and on other blogs, I strongly advise you to look over the second to last paragraph of his latest contribution to literary society. (Titled: Jewish Philosopher's quick roundup)
And I surely hope that anyone who reads this stuff in the name of Jews and theists realizes that at least some of us hold that "thinking" of this nature is an embarrassment to an am chacham v'navon.
I'm just getting caught up on today's comments. Interesting discussion. There seems to be a lot of focus on the "chosen people" aspect.
I think no matter how you spin the "chosen" idea at the end of the day it's still just spin. In my opinion claiming to be "chosen", even for the mission of "pursuing justice, releasing the oppressed and improving the world", is at best as condescending to everyone else in the world. Only Jews can perform these actions? Or, Jews are better suited to pursue these ideals? There really isn't anyway to present it without sounding a little haughty.
For some reason "chosen people" also makes me think of Christians who are "concerned for my soul". They mean well but they can only come off as jerks when they are trying to save me for Jesus.
E-Kvetcher,
> I think it is ironic that Chabad so stresses this in their schools... inevitably you are going to be dealing with a population of people that have many non-jews in their immediate or extended families.
True. In my opinion they don't think the idea through. Maybe on some level it is helpful to vilify in order to facilitate a separation. Who knows...
Rich, I think the term "goy" is a pejorative.
sdr,
>I hope all of your children marry goyim so your seed will vanish from Klal Yisroel.
As long as they're nice people. I could care less what their religious beliefs are or who they marry. They'll already be closer to the heart of the Torah than you are right now.
"For this commandment which I am commanding you this day, it is not hidden from you, nor is it far away. It is not in heaven, [that you should say]: ‘Who will go up to heaven for us, and [bring it back to us], and read it to us, so that we can do it?’ And it is not across the ocean, [that you should say]: ‘Who will cross the ocean for us, and [bring it back to us], and read it to us, so that we can do it?’ For this thing is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to do it." (Deut. 30:11-14)
HH
> I also tend to think the Constitution is more superior to other law texts that other countries might have. So what?
I don't think of myself as "better" than Communists because my system of government is more sustainable. I just think mine works better. But at the end of the day that's just my opinion. On the other hand, Judaism is passing judgment on other people. Take my example about the Jewish souls. Chasidic doctrine is saying that Jews are literally spiritually superior to non-Jews.
> I don't think there is anything morally wrong with thinking your values are superior to others.
Well... When you claim your values come from God, and he Chose You to carry them out, you're not just thinking you have a better plan. The implication is that your values are superior to an infinite degree which is significantly different from simply thinking your man-made system of government is better.
LNM,
"In my opinion claiming to be "chosen", even for the mission of "pursuing justice, releasing the oppressed and improving the world", is at best as condescending to everyone else in the world. Only Jews can perform these actions? Or, Jews are better suited to pursue these ideals? There really isn't anyway to present it without sounding a little haughty."
Anyone can join Jews and be righteous gentiles and so on. The point here is about mission-identity. To properly live up to your Jewish heritage involves things like the pursuit of justice. This is not at the heart of the identity of, say an Italian even if an individual Italian feels the moral drive.
Similarly, at the heart of the American identity are things like democracy and liberty. Other peoples surely can value those same things but they're not part of their identities as a people.
SDR,
> Lubab why censor what are you afraid of?
Just because you crapped out a post and threw it at my blog doesn't mean I have to leave it up. Posts filled with name calling and which lack a point will be deleted. The bar is pretty low. You're allowed to tell me off BUT you have to make an argument or at least act like an adult. Simply calling me (or any other commenter) names will probably get your post deleted.
lubab
I never said I am better. I said if you have a value system, you will naturally think it is superior to other systems. Yes yes, there are tons of people that think they are better, but thank god there are alot of people that don't. I can't contently be fighting what the true meaning of a chosen people means because of the what charedim think and people in the west find it racist. I know plenty of people with experiences when dealing with Christians that see us as chosen. So apparently, its not that haughty to everyone. Are there people that think that? Yes, of course. But I am not going to concern myself by people not understanding what it means.
LMN 2:41
I saw the post, and thought you were right to delete it.
SDR, if all you can do is sneer and call names, you're just proving LMN's and Candy Man's points. If think people are going to read those kinds of posts and say "oh, SDR really got them that time, I'm going to get off the skeptic blogs and go learn some Torah", then you might be disappointed.
You'd be better off engaging them on the points they made, if you think you can.
Have a good Shabbos.
Ichabod Chrain
My mom's not Jewish, but she's OK. It hasn't bothered me. We don't really discuss religion.
"We can't judge causality."
Why not? What's apparent is that no matter what the nations do against the Jews you won't get all moralistic but you'll look for real and imagined racism amongst Jews. What's a scientist like you being so full of it for? Use your head for real thinking. Tell me what racists accept converts in their midst and are descended from them? Why would the Bible have recorded about Gentiles living and being adopted into the Jewish Chosen people if it's racism? And also yes we have the right to know if you are really a Christian pushing an agenda. You certainly are pushing an agenda. Frankly youn seem very missionary like not very scientific like.
You also don't understand Jesus either. You represent him in Christian perfect terms. Tell me would you say he was a flawed human being like the rest of us?
LNM,
>>>Well... When you claim your values come from God, and he Chose You to carry them out, you're not just thinking you have a better plan. The implication is that your values are superior to an infinite degree which is significantly different from simply thinking your man-made system of government is better.
But at the same time, we claim that the values for the gentile (i.e. Sheva Mitzvos B'nei Noach) also came from G-d, and He chose Them to carry them out.
Adam olam katan. Just like in the human body, the brain has one task, to think, while the heart has another, to pump blood to the whole body. Obviously, one cannot claim that since the brain was chosen to think, it is therefore superior to the heart, or vice versa. Both are equally important.
G-d gave one task to the Jew and another to the gentile. To say that one of them is more important than the other is simply incorrect.
Anon,
> Just like in the human body, the brain has one task, to think, while the heart has another, to pump blood to the whole body. Obviously, one cannot claim that since the brain was chosen to think, it is therefore superior to the heart, or vice versa. Both are equally important.
The analogy doesn't work. The brain and heart are two totally different organs that need each other to survive. Jews and gentiles are exactly the same, with the occasional exception of a few external features.
"Jews and gentiles are exactly the same, with the occasional exception of a few external features."
And history and heritage. A Jew is not a Jew from biology, but from culture, history, religion, values and daily observance.
Don't confuse "hardware" and "software."
Orthoprax,
> And history and heritage. A Jew is not a Jew from biology, but from culture, history, religion, values and daily observance.
Don't confuse "hardware" and "software."
This is exactly the point. There is nothing inherent to a Jewish person that makes him or her better than anyone else. Anon was arguing that comparing Jews to gentiles is like comparing a brain to a heart. He was saying we are different kinds of hardware. (I'll continue to use your analogy). My point is we all posses the same basic hardware and there is nothing inherent that makes one model better than another.
"This is exactly the point. There is nothing inherent to a Jewish person that makes him or her better than anyone else. Anon was arguing that comparing Jews to gentiles is like comparing a brain to a heart. He was saying we are different kinds of hardware. (I'll continue to use your analogy). My point is we all posses the same basic hardware and there is nothing inherent that makes one model better than another."
Then you can't make any judgements yet you do all the time.
LNM,
You are right that Jews and gentiles look the same externally, (or have the same "hardware"). But that is only physically. And that is why Jews and gentiles have to perform the same physical tasks, like eating, drinking and sleeping.
However, G-d didn't choose the Jews for their eating and sleeping. He chose them to perform a spiritual task. And that is because a Jew has a different spiritual "organ" than the non-Jew. As you put it "For one, we were taught Jews have both a nefesh elokis (godly soul) and a nefesh habahamis (animal soul). Goys on the other hand only have one of those two souls."
But as implied by the analogy, that doesn't mean that the Jew is more important than the gentile, because the gentile was given an equally important, but different, task that "fits" for his soul.
Anon,
> the gentile was given an equally important, but different, task that "fits" for his soul.
And what would that task be? And if that task is equally important why doesn't it require a separate soul?
LNM,
The task of the gentile is to make sure the world runs normally and is a place fit to live in.
לֹא-תֹהוּ בְרָאָהּ, לָשֶׁבֶת יְצָרָהּ (Yeshayahu 45:18)
Accordingly, the gentile does not need another soul for his mission, because the ones he already has are sufficient.
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