You'd think that the Ten Commandments should stand forever, unchanged, perhaps even be displayed prominently in a Montgomery, Alabama public courthouse in the year 2003. But when you take a look at what the commandments actually say, you notice some interesting peculiarities. Take the second one (Ex. 20:4, emphasis mine):
So, at least according to his top ten list, God punishes children for the sins of their parents. Some apologetics interpret "them that hate me" as referring to the children being punished, but the simplest reading is that it refers to the offending parents. Indeed, the phrase is completely absent in Ex. 34:6-7, where the Bible seems to defend generational punishment as a way for God to spread out his jealous wrath (Hebrew "נֹשֵׂא עָוֹן") over several generations instead of wiping out the parents in a moment of anger. (For an example of generational punishment in action, check out Jer. 29:32.)לֹא-תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם, וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם: כִּי אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֵל קַנָּא--פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל-בָּנִים עַל-שִׁלֵּשִׁים וְעַל-רִבֵּעִים, לְשֹׂנְאָי
Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.
Despite all this, generational punishment was never a very popular concept among the Israelites. Deut. 24:16 explicitly forbids human courts from executing sons for their fathers' sins, which at least some kings took to heart (II Kings 14:6). Before long, the Israelites began to question whether generational punishment made any sense at all. Widely acknowledged as the dry wits of the ancient near east, they came up with a classic pithy saying to summarize the doctrine (Jer 31:29-30, Ezek. 18:1-5):
אָבוֹת אָכְלוּ בֹסֶר; וְשִׁנֵּי בָנִים, תִּקְהֶינָה
The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
During the shit-times in ancient Israel, this tongue-in-cheek pithy became insanely popular (TV had not been invented yet). The Israelites believed in generational punishment, and were using it as an explanation for current events. Who is to blame for the crappy harvest and the invading Babylonians? Of course, it must be our lousy parents' fault! God is so unfair.The problem was, this little doctrine of generational punishment was beginning to annoy prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel, for obvious reasons. You see, they liked to blame the nation's misfortunes on the current generation's wanton ways, not the previous one's. So... the prophets thought about it a little, and realized (or prophesied?) that generational punishment no longer applied! Heck, it never really made any sense anyways, right? So Jeremiah and Ezekiel proclaimed, definitively, that a person is punished only for his own misdeeds (see above passages). You reap what you sow. No more excuses, baby!
Without exception, the prophets of the Hebrew Bible were revolutionaries. They didn't sit there working within the system, changing things one shaitel (woman's wig) hair at a time like our current Jewish leaders. No, they saw a screwed-up system and they turned it on its head. They confronted the corrupt politicians, the false prophets, the dirty high priests, and most of all the greedy, immoral populous. They risked their lives to tell the people the stuff that they didn't want to hear. They rethought Judaism, challenged the old ideas, identified the stuff that wasn't working and reworked it from the ground up. It doesn't add up with the Ten Commandments? Well, God was sending them a different message!
Today, of course, we take it for granted that children are not punished for their parents' sins (or vice-versa). But it's important to realize that early Jews did not. The revelation at Sinai was not perfect, and it wasn't written in stone. These ideas were a development, just like the idea of life after death. And Judaism is still growing. The last 200 years have been huge for Judaism, and a new generation of revolutionaries has now come and gone.
What will we take for granted two generations from now? Marriage equality, certainly. The death penalty will be a distant memory. In four generations, there will be more agnostics and atheists in America than Christians. Racial check-boxes will be a thing of the past. Identities will be forged based on our common humanity, realizing the vision of this country's Constitution. In ten generations, if human beings are still around, they will look down on all of us 21st century yokels as straight up fools and greedy savages. Well, except for the occasional Ezekiel, of course.
75 comments:
Without exception, the prophets of the Hebrew Bible were revolutionaries. They didn't sit there working within the system, changing things one shaitel (woman's wig) hair at a time like our current Jewish leaders. No, they saw a screwed-up system and they turned it on its head.
Can anything you say NOT be overloaded with such a twist toward your own agenda. From what you claim to be a reinterpretation of the idea of punishment, you turn them into great revolutionaries. Creating a whole brand new system due to the failure of the old.
LNM a simple explanation is that G-d does visit the iniquity of the immediate descendants of people because they prob agate their sins. This is the typical way the descendent's get punished. We cause our own punishments. Think of how the whites today have the iniquity of their fathers visited on them. This reconciles it nicely with Avraham's idea in the Torah that G-d would punish Sodom only based on the behavior of its residents living at that time not based on a special dispensation for Sodom but that this is the way G-d works. As for your idea of the future it's based on what you want to see.
"Racial check-boxes will be a thing of the past."
Only if Conservatives win on this.
CM,
So are you envisioning a stronger, more moving Judaism of the future or for Judaism to be smoothed out and sapped of meaning under the homogenizing contours of general Humanism?
I can't help but get the sense that a "growing Judaism" for you really means quite the opposite.
Small hoofed mammal,
Can anything you say NOT be overloaded with sch a twist toward your own agenda.
Nope. I just twist the facts to suit my own agenda.
Seriously, if you'd read the rest of the paragraph, you'd understand that my impression of the prophets as revolutionaries is based on their books as a whole. The case of generational punishment is only one example.
Now go chew your cud!
RG,
We cause our own punishments. Think of how the whites today have the iniquity of their fathers visited on them.
I like how you're thinking, and agree with you that we suffer from the mistakes of past generations. However, I do think it's more of a midrash (exegesis) than p'shat (original intent) in the chumash. I also think the Israelite adage might have originated with your idea in mind on a p'shat level.
OP,
So are you envisioning a stronger, more moving Judaism of the future or for Judaism to be smoothed out and sapped of meaning under the homogenizing contours of general Humanism?
A difficult question, and one I'm still trying to figure out myself. I think the days of absolute truth are over. Same for ideologies of race. The question becomes, if we take these away from Judaism, what's left?
There is certainly a historical/cultural side to Judaism which will always be enough for some. But for me, who is essentially interested in spirituality, peace, and the greater welfare of humanity, that's not very interesting.
I think sometimes we just have to move into the future before we can see it clearly. One important step would be for all the world religious leaders to get together and acknowledge that none is greater than the other, and that all have certain things in common. That would ease the tension and the competition, allowing each individual tradition to figure out what exactly it brings to the table/feast. I had hoped that such a realization might occur after 9/11, which was primarily the fault of religion, but the leaders have yet to step up.
just one example? What others are there please?
And by the way, I have a feeling that the prophets said Havdala, if you get my drift.
Holy Hyrax,
> I have a feeling that the prophets said Havdala, if you get my drift.
There are varying opinions. (Surprised?) Some people think the obligation for havdala is deorisa (Rashi) others think it was just drabanan (Beit Yosef). But whatever you believe is the source for the obligation the form havdala has taken is certainly drabanan.
So, the prophets didn't say the same havdala we say... unless they prophesied it of course. :)
Generational punishment is still very much part of Judaism. The rabbis have taught “minors may die by their fathers sin, by Heavenly decree” Sifre, Devarim 24:147.
I think as we evolve religion will be abolished and rightfully punished upon the unlawful practice thereof. Shining knights like LNM and CM will lead the way into a race/gender free society of loving caring humans with the goal of perfection being the ratification of the superior ideals found primarily on skepta-blogs and the U.S. Constitution as the new "divine" law. Of course the Constitution must be cleansed as to any reference to a "God" or any other superior being, because as we all know we are all equal without any deviation. I thank whatever power there is for granting us LNM and CM. Without such individuals we are essentially stuck in the stone age forever.
Candy's little friend,
LOL!
Even if that was what we wanted it wouldn't work. See: French Revolution
Little Friend, it's been done already. Haven't you heard of the Soviet Union, that paradise of the working class?
JP:
That was exactly my point. CM & LNM can just go to Russia & spread their crap over there.
Actually the message of the prophets was to accept Judaism as exclusively true. That was not easily able to be accepted by many Israelites. The idea of absolute religion on the level of Judaism was unique in the world. Even Akhenaten who made a government forged religion as opposed to the more popular ethnic religion still felt that his religion's "reality" was for Egyptians only.
"Russia is not communist anymore, you idiot!"
I think he knew that. Are you Emunah Peshuta and upset that someone from the other side can do your shtick?
>I think he knew that. Are you Emunah Peshuta and upset that someone from the other side can do your shtick?
Yeah, I am upset that someone from the sitra achra can do my shtick. It burns me up, as a matter of fact. I can't even sleep at night.
BTW, have you purchased your Jump to Conclusions Mat yet? Why the F*CK would you think that I am "Emunah Peshuta"?
LNM
I think (maybe not) you missed my point. Candyman is bringing the prophets as some great illuminaries. They did not rethink Judaism or challenge any old idea accept the idolatry. They were not the humanists of their day. If believed in a chosen nation and serve God. In holiness and everything else that Candyman sees as nonsense and illogical. If anything, these prophets would have had no problem executing Candyman.
"BTW, have you purchased your Jump to Conclusions Mat yet? Why the F*CK would you think that I am "Emunah Peshuta"?"
I asked you a question. I haven't jumped to any conclusions.
No. I am not EP, BTA, XGH, LF, or DB.
I am that I am.
“minors may die by their fathers sin, by Heavenly decree” Sifre, Devarim 24:147.
Thats a real kind God that you believe in. Kills innocent little children because of what their parents did. The Mabel nust have been hilarious. All those little children who were too young to know what they were being punished for or why.......Avi
"“minors may die by their fathers sin, by Heavenly decree” Sifre, Devarim 24:147.
Thats a real kind God that you believe in. Kills innocent little children because of what their parents did. The Mabel nust have been hilarious. All those little children who were too young to know what they were being punished for or why.......Avi"
G-d kills people when they are old. We don't. He can accomplish His ends in ways we can't. If morality and ethics are not objective and scientifically they're not, but rather random depending for input, the makeup of the species, then you don't have a leg to stand on in judging G-d.
People keep thinking that there's this big beardy white haired old man throwing punishments around and still don't get the import of the old saying "what goes around comes around".
I hit a ball, I feel the inertial resistance, my skin compresses, the ball compresses, it moves in the direction of my hit. It hits a wall, rebounds off, comes back and hits me.
In human dynamics, you spread hate, anger, and lack of understanding. You spread paranoia and frustration. Because you feel it that way all the time in some way because there's always something you don't understand. Others respond in kind, they spread it, others get it, they spread it.
It's a combination of deterministic systems of various kinds with random modifiers thrown in and their various interactions combine on such a level as to seem totally random altogether and to some degree it is. But you know that what you do has consequences, forseen or not.
I like to think that is the majesty of G-d's creation right there. Everything connected in neat package called a universe not much different than a child playing cat's cradle with string. Everything leads to something else and there's always room somewhen for everything.
So in essence, the sins of the parents will always be visited on the children. Not because G-d assigns punishments to the wrong people, but because the punishments have a place and path in time just as much as the people and the sins that brought them about. Time being relative and moving, sometimes a rebound strikes the next player in line.
G-d wasn't threatening. He was warning a species which He created to already know, but of free will chooses to live in ignorance and since they were made in His image, what does that say about Him? If we listen, is says something good. If not, what's the point of making us? Those are the stakes riding on listening or not.
-suitepotato-,
> G-d wasn't threatening.
Really? Let's look at the text again.
Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.
HH, I don't have time today to search through the Tanach for prooftexts. But I maintain that the prophets were visionaries and created new meanings from old traditions. They also looked forward to world peace. Not quite humanists, but they were definitely progressives. Several examples spring to mind, they include:
Micah 4 (world peace): 2 And many nations shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths'; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide concerning mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken. 5 For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Isaiah 58 (spiritual vs. moral fasts): Is such the fast that I have chosen? the day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the fetters of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him, and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thy healing shall spring forth speedily; and thy righteousness shall go before thee, the glory of the LORD shall be thy rearward.
Jeremiah 31 (out with the old): 30 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; 31 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. 32 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; 33 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Ezekiel 18 (not a vengeful god anymore): 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD; and not rather that he should return from his ways, and live?
(Note the difference here between your fire-and-brimstone God and the prophet's. And let's not forget the lesson of Jonah, who didn't want to save non-Jewish town of Ninveh because they were sinners. God showed him the way.)
Finally, I forget where this quote is from, but it's also a good one:
and also from among [the other nations] will I take for priests.
Now, I challenge you back, hyrax: show me several places where the later prophets rail seriously against purely ritual violations, such as keeping kosher, waving lulav, or wearing tzitzit. I will not count Shabbat, since it's a cornerstone. Idolatry and forbidden relationships (gilui arayot) are likewise out. I want you to show me where the prophets emphasize what became the cornerstone of Rabbinic Judaism: endless minutia for rituals with no obvious rationale such as kashrut, kilaim, etc.
Within the thousands of verses of the later prophets, surely you can come up with at least five examples.
CM,
"Now, I challenge you back, hyrax: show me several places where the later prophets rail seriously against purely ritual violations"
I agree with you in point, but I thought I'd like to take up the challenge for fun.
"All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations...who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat." - Isaiah, 65:2-4
"The LORD said, "In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them." Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth." -Ezekiel, 4:13-14
"25 Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you eat meat with the blood still in it...should you then possess the land?" - Ezekiel, 33:25
"You place defiled food on my altar."But you ask, 'How have we defiled you?'"By saying that the LORD's table is contemptible. When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong?" - Malachi, 1:7-8
"...[I]n you are those who violate women during their period, when they are ceremonially unclean." - Ezekiel, 22:10
"Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean..." - Ezekiel, 22:26
"I will take the blood from their mouths,the forbidden food from between their teeth. Those who are left will belong to our God and become leaders in Judah..." -Zechariah, 9:7
"Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together," declares the LORD." - Isaiah, 66:17
Now the point here is twofold. One is that many of the typical Rabbinic practices of today simply did not exist or were not as prevalent back in those days. And secondly that it is apparent that those guys had bigger fish to fry than just ritual issues.
OP, I think you get it. And I appreciate the research you've done here.
Note that most of the quotes you cite are from Ezekiel. He was a priest; indeed, Ezekiel is to the rest of the prophets what Leviticus is to the rest of the Pentateuch. It is no coincidence that the majority of ritual references in the prophets come from Ezekiel, since rituals were largely the purview of the priesthood back then.
The idea behind Rabbinic Judaism was to extend the priesthood to the rest of the nation. In the absence of the Temple, the dinner table became the new altar. (Neusner has dealt with this at length, as have others.) Although the Rabbis occasionally project this concept backwards by way of midrash, they never hid the fact that they had reformed Judaism. In fact, HH, if you seek reformers, you need look no further than the Rabbis themselves. They changed Judaism fundamentally.
OP, you are also correct that in Biblical times the prophets had "bigger fish to fry." Back then, people really abused other people, in terrible ways, on a daily basis. By comparison, we're all tzaddikim/pious ones in today's society.
Your challenged is flawed from the very beginning. You are simply asking something to prove that which you are seeking. You are absolutely not looking at this objectively. The roles of the prophets were NEVER about minutia of halachot. It was not about kashrut. They had bigger issues to tackle in their respective time periods in their respective regions. It was always to set the morality of the nation back on track or to another purpose for the nation as a whole.
Also, some of the later prophetic works are dated after the exilic return, which by then they had a torah. So, nu? Are you going to me that kashrut did not exist just because they did not mention it? You are totally choosing to ignore the purpose of the prophetic writings. Even if you hold that the torah is a later work, you still have to confront the fact that some of the writings date after a Torah (with "irrational" laws) was part of the nation, but yet still not talked about.
Now ofcourse Rabbinic Judaism invented alot of minutia. But so what? Talmud Torah took a different role and we do not even know how far back many of these laws go.
Now, did I ever say that the prophets did NOT speak about world peace and a time of glory and all that good stuff???? NO! But you seem to be implying that laws were something much later created by the rabbis. You have NO evidence for this. The prophets themselves make allusions in their writings to Israel being being a chosen nation to God (which I know you don't like).If you want to sound like a scholar, for god sake do some homework. What laws are you talking about? Kashrut, or kol isha? Ritual purity, or amidah? I will agree with you 100% that so much of what we do today is from the rabbis. But does that mean all of it, just because prophets do not mention them? That is silly. Again, that was not the function and charge of the prophetic writings.
"-suitepotato-,
> G-d wasn't threatening.
Really? Let's look at the text again.
Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me."
It doesn't say G-d is going to be sending a thunderbolt or something. You are so literal you overdo it like a child reading Bible stories. G-d's describing cause and affect. Since He gives the means for things to happen He takes responsibility but we can turn the tide and He'll help make that happen too.
Now, did I ever say that the prophets did NOT speak about world peace and a time of glory and all that good stuff???? NO! But you seem to be implying that laws were something much later created by the rabbis. You have NO evidence for
You are misinterpreting the point of the challenge. I never would suggest that the laws did not already exist in some written form. Indeed, I suspect that many/most of the law codes in the Torah predate Jeremiah or Ezekiel. It is their priority that I always questioned, and their immutability. That was the point of both the post and the challenge.
As I understand Tanach, the laws of kashrut, as well as Jewish holidays, were only kept by a small minority of the population in Biblical times. I agree that most of the Bible had been written by that time. Although many of the Bible's ritual laws are directed *only* at priests, some of these were directed at the general population. These ritual laws were not being generally kept, indicating that they were a low priority or generally unaccepted. Furthermore, and the prophets did not seem to care about their violation very much.
The prophets do spend an enormous amount of energy on being a nice person. Idolatry and social justice are their two primary causes, with Shabbat a distant third. As for ritual, it encompasses maybe 1% of their talk.
I will agree with you 100% that so much of what we do today is from the rabbis.
How does something that rated 1% of the prophets' attention in Biblical times grow to a 100% priority? That's the question.
Returning to the post: you still have not addressed my main point, which is that the prophets essentially overturned a cornerstone of the Ten Commandments, generational punishment. To me, this is one example (of many) of how Judaism can change in major ways. (As for the Sifre, it cannot contradict the Tanach/Bible, so I doubt it's a majority view. But I haven't looked into it.)
"These ritual laws were not being generally kept, indicating that they were a low priority or generally unaccepted. Furthermore, and the prophets did not seem to care about their violation very much."
On the contrary rituals were being kept (Isaiah 1:13. Bring no more vain offerings; incense of abomination they are to me; as for new moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies, I cannot bear iniquity along with solemn meeting.)but so was idolatry. The prophets only complained about what was not being kept enough or at all like Shmitta. It is interesting that you exclude the Sabbath as evidence. On the
contrary it is a cornerstone of Jewish law and so is evidence that the prophets had it in mind. It is no coincidence that the term Shomer Shabbos is often used interchangeably with the word observant.
"Isaiah 56:4. For thus says the Lord to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant..."
II Chronicles Chapter 8:...12. Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the Lord on the altar of the Lord, which he had built before the vestibule,
13. As the duty of each date required, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the Sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the appointed feasts, three times in the year, in the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and in the Feast of Weeks, and in the Feast of Tabernacles..."
"II Chronicles Chapter 31
1. And when all this was finished, all Israel who were present went out to the cities of Judah, and broke the images in pieces, and cut down the Asherim, and broke down the high places and the altars throughout all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had completely destroyed them all. Then all the people of Israel returned, every man to his possession, to their own cities.
2. And Hezekiah appointed the duty watches of the priests and the Levites, division by division, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the Lord.
3. He appointed also the king’s portion of his wealth for the burnt offerings, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the appointed feasts, as it is written in the Torah of the Lord.
4. And he commanded the people who lived in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might give themselves firmly to the Torah of the Lord..."
"II Chronicles 36:21. To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."
"Isaiah 52:1. Awake, awake; put on your strength, O Zion; put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; from now on there shall no more come to you the uncircumcised and the unclean."
"Isaiah 52:11. Depart, depart, go out from there, touch no unclean thing; go out from her midst; be clean, you who bear the utensils of the Lord."
"Isaiah Chapter 35:8. And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; and he shall be to them a guide, and fools shall not err in it."
"Isaiah 64:5. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous actions are as filthy rags; and we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
"Hosea 9:3. They shall not dwell in the Lord’s land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean food in Assyria."
"Haggai Chapter 2
1. In the seventh month, in the twenty first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by the prophet Haggai, saying,
2. Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
3. Who is left among you who saw this house in her first glory? How do you see it now? Is it not in your eyes as nothing?
4. Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, says the Lord: and be strong, O Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, says the Lord, and work; for I am with you, said the Lord of hosts;
5. According to the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, Egypt, so my spirit remains among you; do not fear.
6. For thus says the Lord of hosts; Yet again in a little while, I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.
7. And I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come; and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of hosts.
8. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, says the Lord of hosts.
9. The glory of this latter house shall be greater than that of the former, says the Lord of hosts; and in this place I will give peace, says the Lord of hosts.
10. On the twenty fourth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying:
11. Thus says the Lord of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the Torah, saying,
12. If one carries consecrated meat in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt touches bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any food, shall it become consecrated? And the priests answered and said, No.
13. Then said Haggai, If one who is unclean by a dead body touches any of these, does it become unclean? And the priests answered and said, It does become unclean.
14. Then Haggai answered, and said: So it is with this people, and so it is with this nation before me, says the Lord: and so it is with every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean..."
"Job Chapter 14
1. Man, who is born of a woman, is of few days, and full of trouble.
2. He comes forth like a flower, and is cut down; he flees like a shadow, and does not endure.
3. And do you open your eyes upon such a one, and bring me to judgment with you?
4. Who can bring a clean thing from an unclean? Not one..."
"II Chronicles 23:19. And he set the gatekeepers at the gates of the house of the Lord, so that no one who was unclean in any way should enter."
There was a definite concern with people observing G-d's covenant period. There wasn't a dichotomy. There was a concern for people to be wholehearted in their devotion rather than serving G-d and other gods which of course can only lead to violations of G-d's covenant. That's the real reading.
>It is their priority that I always questioned, and their immutability. That was the point of both the post and the challenge.
Then you answered yourself here:
OP, you are also correct that in Biblical times the prophets had "bigger fish to fry." Back then, people really abused other people, in terrible ways, on a daily basis. By comparison, we're all tzaddikim/pious ones in today's society.
>you still have not addressed my main point, which is that the prophets essentially overturned a cornerstone of the Ten Commandments, generational punishment.
I am not sure how I can address that. I am not an expert on all prophetic writings and why they said what they did to each of their recpective audiences. A lot of it is written in poetry and served a particular purpose. But lets just say they totally decided to reinterpret it. ok. so? The fire brimstone God was still there. You can just look at what happened after David's census or the punishments of exile.
Plus, your whole post is based on their supposed theological interpretations. How are you even comparing it to to chazals practical halachic interpretations.
RG,
> It doesn't say G-d is going to be sending a thunderbolt or something. You are so literal you overdo it like a child reading Bible stories. G-d's describing cause and affect. Since He gives the means for things to happen He takes responsibility but we can turn the tide and He'll help make that happen too.
This is not simply god taking responsibility. God is saying he will take revenge! He is says he will "visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children". This is a direct threat.
Of the ten commandments he only offers cause and effect one other time, honoring one's parents:
Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God commanded thee; that thy days may be long, and that it may go well with thee, upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
(Note how this also deals with parents and children). With honoring one's parents he leaves the effect open to interpretation. He's not saying he will make your days long, he's just saying they will be long. Here the words open themselves to interpretation, whereas in 5:8 god's intention is made perfectly clear.
"This is not simply god taking responsibility. God is saying he will take revenge! He is says he will "visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children". This is a direct threat."
What direct threat? Where's the thunderbolt or tornado? We make the threat real. G-d gives us the energy to do it. That's as direct as can be guaranteed. The best that can be said otherwise is that someone may get hit or they may live a nice long life. It surely did not pass the notice of the ancients before the Rabbis noticed it, that in this world as opposed to the next there are only generalities that can be guaranteed. They had eyes too.
"Here the words open themselves to interpretation, whereas in 5:8 god's intention is made perfectly clear."
Oh yeah no interpretation. "Deuteronomy Chapter 5...
9. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
10. And showing mercy to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments..."
In case you haven't noticed we are not at the thousand and oneth generation level of those who love G-d so He shows mercy to us but He also said about visiting the iniquity of the third or fourth generation. Suppose the 3rd or 4th generation of those that hate Him? Seems like it cries out for an interpretation like anything.
"In four generations, there will be more agnostics and atheists in America than Christians. Racial check-boxes will be a thing of the past. "
Don't be see quick to write off religion. My theory is that faith is hard-coded into our brains, and that people will always be drawn to it, no matter how enlightened society is. Not to mention the human trait of "otherness", to categorize people into us and them. I know that there are some countries that are primarily aetheistic or secular (like some scandanavian countries), but their populations are very homogenous.
Regarding the biblical ethic of punishment-- I think the same approach applies towards other examples of "biblical ethics" like slavery, etc, that have disappeared from the world. No Jews actually believe this any more. Many of these biblical rules very much resemble covenants signed between vassals and rulers at the time. The flip side-- that we benefit from the "zchut" of the avot-- even though we say it in our prayers-- is also not taken seriously by anybody now. Maybe it reflects the idea, that we see in modern times, that the advantages or disadvantages of parents can sometimes handicap or help the child.
RG,
You're still missing the point. In 5:8 and 5:9 god makes it personal. "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God", "...of them that hate Me", "that love Me and keep My commandments." In 5:15 he just throws an idea out there ("that thy days may be long"). Here he is saying he will get involved.
"Lubab No More said...
RG,
You're still missing the point. In 5:8 and 5:9 god makes it personal. "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God", "...of them that hate Me", "that love Me and keep My commandments." In 5:15 he just throws an idea out there ("that thy days may be long"). Here he is saying he will get involved."
He's involved in both. On the contrary making days long is more in his power that He allowed Himself.
> He's involved in both. On the contrary making days long is more in his power that He allowed Himself.
Of course he is involved with both, he's god. The difference is in one he is simply laying out cause and effect (honor your parents) and in the other he is saying he will be personally offended and will doll out punishment (do not bow to other gods). You're ignoring this inconsistency because it doesn't fit with how you want to see god. The peshat is clear. Yes, there are other ways to read every text (70 variations etc.) but you are bending over backward to reinterpret the word of god.
No, no, you guys have it all wrong! "That thy days may be long" is actually a curse. Every time I go to my parent's house, the day feels like it will never end!
e-kvetcher,
LOL!
"Lubab No More said...
> He's involved in both. On the contrary making days long is more in his power that He allowed Himself.
Of course he is involved with both, he's god. The difference is in one he is simply laying out cause and effect (honor your parents) and in the other he is saying he will be personally offended and will doll out punishment (do not bow to other gods). You're ignoring this inconsistency because it doesn't fit with how you want to see god. The peshat is clear. Yes, there are other ways to read every text (70 variations etc.) but you are bending over backward to reinterpret the word of god."
On the contrary, you're the one bending over backwards. You're making G-d out to be drinking bear, eating pretzels and cussing.
RG and HH, it apears to be your contention that Biblical Jews were essentially Orthodox, or at least "Shomer Shabbat." I disagree:
Joshua's circumcision (Joshua 5): All the people that came out had been circumcised, but all the people born in the desert during the journey from Egypt had not.
Hezekiah's Passover (II Chronicles 30): There was great joy in Jerusalem, for since the days of Solomon son of David king of Israel there had been nothing like this in Jerusalem.
Josiah's Passover (2 Kings 23): Not since the days of the judges who led Israel, nor throughout the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah, had any such Passover been observed.
Nehemiah's Succot (Nehemiah 8): The whole company that had returned from exile built booths and lived in them. From the days of Joshua son of Nun until that day, the Israelites had not celebrated it like this.
The above examples leave no doubt about what the general "observance level" was like in Biblical times. And the people were practicing idolatry, golden calves, the whole way through. So, no monotheism, no circumcision, no Jewish holidays... I don't think they were remotely observant.
The prophets only really cared about idolatry and being a good person. Shabbat was a distant third on their priority list.
You cut short the quotation about circumcision. It explains that it was not from neglect but allowed. If circumcision was not regularly followed then what was being said about the Philistines being uncircumcised scoundrels?
"4. And this is the cause why Joshua circumcised: All the people who came out of Egypt, who were males, all the men of war, died in the wilderness on the road, after they came out of Egypt.
5. Now all the people who came out were circumcised; but all the people who were born in the wilderness on the road as they came forth out of Egypt, those were not circumcised.
6. For the people of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people who were men of war, who came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord; to whom the Lord swore that he would not show them the land, which the Lord swore to their fathers that he would give us, a land that flows with milk and honey.
7. And their children, whom he raised up in their place, them Joshua circumcised; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them on the road.
8. And it came to pass, when they had finished circumcising all the people, that they stayed in their places in the camp, till they had recovered.
9. And the Lord said to Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal to this day.
10. And the people of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening in the plains of Jericho.
11. And they ate of the old grain of the land on the next day after the Passover, unleavened cakes, and parched grain in the same day."
Furthermore Jeremiah makes it explicit that the Israelites were a circumcised people.
"Jeremiah Chapter 9...
24. Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will punish all those who are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
25. Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the Ammonites, and Moab, and all who dwell in the wilderness; for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all of the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart..."
"The above examples leave no doubt about what the general "observance level" was like in Biblical times. And the people were practicing idolatry, golden calves, the whole way through. So, no monotheism, no circumcision, no Jewish holidays... I don't think they were remotely observant."
So what did they do all day? If Pesach was really described as being generally unobserved then we have a contradiction because the prior reformation Hezekiah is being failed to be mentioned in connection with Josiah. Similarly the festival of Tabernacles is mentioned as observed much before Nechemiah.
"II Chronicles Chapter 8:...12. Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the Lord on the altar of the Lord, which he had built before the vestibule,
13. As the duty of each date required, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the Sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the appointed feasts, three times in the year, in the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and in the Feast of Weeks, and in the Feast of Tabernacles..."
>RG and HH, it apears to be your contention that Biblical Jews were essentially Orthodox,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAA!
oh mercy.
>So, no monotheism, no circumcision, no Jewish holidays... I don't think they were remotely observant.
At different times, sure, things were shaky. Observance went up and down as they do today. No suprise there. I have learned in the middle ages Jews barely put on tfillin. Ok, so? Different times. Different experiences.
>The prophets only really cared about idolatry and being a good person. Shabbat was a distant third on their priority list.
See now you are changing your tone. Before you made them sound like a bunch of reformers. Rethinking Judaism is what you said. Now you are merely saying commandments (which you acknowledged existed) were not a priority, but its still on the list. You will get no argument here. It was the function of the prophets to make the nation moral again. Then, comes the rest of the commandments.
And so, even though their job was at emphasizing one thing, you have not shown anywhere, that they disregarded the rest of the statues.
RG
Not that I usually side with you, but taking literary criticism from Candyman is not a good idea. He is no scholar in that field.
Quoting something like they did not keep sukkot till joshua might not be as easy as it seems. You may have to look at the themes of the books of Ezra and Nehemia to get a better grasp of what the authors meant. It could be comparing the joyous nature of the Jews coming into Israel for the first time and celebrating sukkot with the joyous nature of the Jews returning to Israel and celebrating sukkot.
We see Jeremiah said that the people were going to be punished for not keeping the Sabatical year Shemitta. According to you he shouldn't have cared.
II Chronicles Chapter 36...
"18. And all the utensils of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.
19. And they burned the house of God, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious utensils.
20. And those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and to his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia;
21. To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil seventy years."
Woops I was saying that about Candy Man.
"Holy Hyrax said...
RG
Not that I usually side with you,"
That's ok. It's safe now to side with me. The hush campaign against me died with the fall of the conspirators.
HH,
taking literary criticism from Candyman is not a good idea. He is no scholar in that field.
Heh. What do you know about me? I have spent years studying the Bible, poring over it, figuring out its secrets. My interpretations are always based on reading the books as a whole... that's what I've been trying to explain to you.
But as I always say, don't take my word for it. Look up the passages I quote, and decide for yourself.
"The Candy Man said...
HH,
taking literary criticism from Candyman is not a good idea. He is no scholar in that field.
Heh. What do you know about me? I have spent years studying the Bible, poring over it, figuring out its secrets. My interpretations are always based on reading the books as a whole... that's what I've been trying to explain to you.
But as I always say, don't take my word for it. Look up the passages I quote, and decide for yourself.
January 29, 2008 8:51 PM"
Sounds more like Old Fashioned Bible Criticism:Judaism starts off primitive, then come the prophets, then comes the nasty old Pharisees multiplying the "law", then comes your lord and savior Jesus.
"Look up the passages I quote, and decide for yourself."
LOL we'll look up the ones you don't quote as well.
RG,
Sounds more like Old Fashioned Bible Criticism:Judaism starts off primitive, then come
I work hard to make a nice post every week, and I think my ideas are pretty original. If you don't appreciate them, perhaps you should read other blogs.
then comes your lord and savior Jesus.
Jesus is not part of Biblical criticism. Spinoza was one of the first Bible critics... as was Abraham Ibn Ezra.
I also don't understand why you are always bringing things back to Christianity and mocking it. It's a faith with good people in it, just like Judaism.
"I also don't understand why you are always bringing things back to Christianity and mocking it. It's a faith with good people in it, just like Judaism."
I haven't done that. What I've done is suspect you of being Christian. You know that. Interesting that you spoke of good people who are believing in Judaism. I guess Judaism isn’t good enough for you but has good people believing in it. So do cults. So lets see we have to be politically correct and not mock any faith but Judaism. That makes sense. Why didn’t I think of that? What about Richard Dawkins, patron saint of mockers?
"then comes your lord and savior Jesus.
Jesus is not part of Biblical criticism."
What about Biblical Criticism on the New Testament or is that too much for you to contemplate? Critiques cannot be for Christianity but you can attack Judaism?
"I work hard to make a nice post every week, and I think my ideas are pretty original. If you don't appreciate them, perhaps you should read other blogs."
Ah censorship. How politically correct.
>What I've done is suspect you of being Christian.
BTW, have you purchased your Jump to Conclusions Mat yet? Why the F*CK would you think that Candyman is a Christian?
"Anonymous said...
>What I've done is suspect you of being Christian.
BTW, have you purchased your Jump to Conclusions Mat yet? Why the F*CK would you think that Candyman is a Christian?"
Avi he brought Christianity and Jesus up enough to wonder about him.
At my discretion, I will delete posts that amount to little less than insults. (I'm looking at you anon). Calm down or move on.
RG,
>> If you don't appreciate them, perhaps you should read other blogs.
> Ah censorship. How politically correct.
Censorship is when I delete comments. Telling someone to go away is expressing an opinion.
"Censorship is when I delete comments. Telling someone to go away is expressing an opinion."
I was aware of that. I was referring to motivation.
> I was aware of that. I was referring to motivation.
Then why did you imply he was trying to censor you?
"Lubab No More said...
> I was aware of that. I was referring to motivation.
Then why did you imply he was trying to censor you?
January 30, 2008 4:29 PM"
Because that's what he wanted as a result. If I don't comment then I'm out.
DrJ and Orthopraxanon, you both suggest that religion may be stronger than I give it credit. It's definitely possible... especially if religion finds some new ways to appeal to people, a new voice if you will.
Anyhoo, "I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet." I just wanted to stimulate some discussion about what the future might look like :)
PS For what it's worth, I have no censorship privileges on this blog, only LNM wields that power.
"The Candy Man said...
DrJ and Orthopraxanon, you both suggest that religion may be stronger than I give it credit. It's definitely possible... especially if religion finds some new ways to appeal to people, a new voice if you will."
That's precisely not the way religion attracts numbers. Which churches are doing better...Time up...The old time religion ones."
RG,
I haven't done that. What I've done is suspect you of being Christian. You know that.
Sorry for misinterpreting your trend. I'm glad you weren't mocking Christianity. Criticism of any doctrine is fine by me, but it should be done in a sensitive way.
I try to be sensitive to Jews, but I don't always succeed. I am sorry for offending people... it's a delicate balance. I don't mind being called out on *that*.
As for being a Christian, well I would have had to be a Jew first I think, considering my knowledge of Biblical Hebrew and the fact that I went to Yeshiva! But it's always possible that I went to Yeshiva and then became a Jew for Jesus or something. I do think that Jews for Jesus get very little respect from the rest of the Jewish world, and are basically being alienated by them... a shame, I think. Hmmm, basis for a new post?
"PS For what it's worth, I have no censorship privileges on this blog, only LNM wields that power."
Be that as it may you would do well not to make criticism personal. I was criticizing your views not attacking you beyond that.
BTW, have you purchased your Jump to Conclusions Mat yet? Why the F*CK would you think that Candyman is a Christian?
LOL! I'm loving that mat.
"The Candy Man said...
RG,
I haven't done that. What I've done is suspect you of being Christian. You know that.
Sorry for misinterpreting your trend. I'm glad you weren't mocking Christianity. Criticism of any doctrine is fine by me, but it should be done in a sensitive way."
Whoops I didn't realize you made a concilliatory post already. I accept. All is well.
OrthoPraxAnon,
> who is having the babies in America? Agnostics? Or religious people? Religious People.
While making babies is fun it isn't the only way to make more agnostics and atheists. There are many, many people who were born into a frum family who went OTD.
That said I would give the frummies the edge at the moment. But if the blogs are any indication more and more FFBs are reconsidering their upbringing. Who actually "wins" (if there is such a thing as winning in this case) is something only time can tell.
"That said I would give the frummies the edge at the moment. But if the blogs are any indication more and more FFBs are reconsidering their upbringing. Who actually "wins" (if there is such a thing as winning in this case) is something only time can tell."
In the Jewish world time has already told. Be Jewish by faith history says or else see your descendents be Gentile.
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