What do Orthoprax parents teach their kids? As things in my life stand right now serial Orthopraxy seems to be the path I'm on. That's my problem but, what does that mean for my kid?
I don't want to lie to him. I definitely will not teach him to think that every story in the Torah is true. I find there is value in asking what the stories in the Torah teach us. But that only gets you so far. There is much in the Torah that doesn't necessarily have a deeper meaning, and worse, I outright disagree with some of the values the Torah teaches.
I feel the Torah as it is interpreted by MO isn't a terrible thing to base your life on. Let me say that again, as interpreted by MO Judaism. However, I will not flat out lie to my kid and say it is from god, and it is perfect, and it is true, because it isn't.
I hope that if I give him the tools to think analytically he will see the truth for himself. No doubt I will also unintentionally send all kinds of subtle, and not so subtle, messages that let him know I think Torah is a bunch of hooey.
Of course, if he does goes OTD it would probably break his mother's heart, and it would probably be because of me. So, I'm screwed no matter how you cut it. Unless she joins me on the dark side. Heh. Yeah, right. Now there's some wishful thinking.
Orthoprax parents, what do you teach your kids?
22 comments:
My kids are older, and already have developed their independent opinions on these matters. I can see that this is more complicated when you're raising little kids and have to use simpler concepts. In my experience most questions that come are more practical, but if they ask a point blank faith type question, you might anwer that you really aren't sure yourself, and refer them to their mother...And when they ask why they have to do such and such a mitzvah, you explain to them that this is what Jews do, or that this is your way of being Jewish.
Of course, when they get older they'll have to figure things out for themselves..
even worse is having to pay ridiculous tuition to send them to frum schools while you live an orthoprax/closet kofer lifestyle.
My mother used to say we were "observant", as opposed to religious.
In my own family, I want my children to be comfortable asking questions. To this day I don't feel comfortable asking certain questions in public. My husband, who has stronger belief than I, encourages our children to question someone who insists there is no God. I just yell at them as they go to school: "Ask some good questions!"
My real fear with my kids is they will make aliyah, and I will be forced to live my twilight years with socialized medicine.
Anon,
I fear the tuition issue. If I do end up sending my kid to Jewish day school (a probable scenario) I will resent it. I have no clue what I am going to do about it.
Leora,
I like the "Ask some good questions" line. I'm going to file that one away.
Do whatever you think is best BUT don't cry when they marry goyim!
SDR,
I have no problem with my kids marrying non-Jews. Why should I have a problem with intermarriage?
Lubab,
You shouldn't, but I bet your wife would. You seem like the type of guy who would get divorced, fight for the kids and insist they eat chazir. I feel sorry for your family.
SDR,
> You seem like the type of guy who would get divorced, fight for the kids and insist they eat chazir.
You obviously don't know me at all.
A little advice, if you're going to try to start a fight at least try to be creative. Intermarriage? Pork? C'mon. You can do better than that.
I second anon's point about tuition. I definitely started to resent paying gobs of money just to send my kids to a religious school. At least now that I am in Israel the tuition is a non-issue since my kids are in a religious public school and I pay next to nothing for it out of pocket.
My kids aren't at the stage of questioning stuff yet, but i do cringe when they come home with all the torah stories and techiyat hamaytim crap.
Yes, tuition is high. I do resent that career choices for my boys will be limited if/when they choose to send their own children to day school.
But it helps to look at the options...luckily, in our area, there are choices of Jewish high schools, and I'm pleased with one that my oldest may attend next year. And would you be comfortable with your children at public school?
To Rich about the torah stories, that's my favorite part of their little people years! I get to relearn the stories in an adult way, and say things like "ooh, I don't care much for the Akedah story" or "Was Rebecca really 3?" out loud. There are plenty of people with all sorts of beliefs who spend their life studying Bible or Talmud.
T'cheyat Hamatim seems like a comforting way for a little kid to deal with death. Works for a lot of adults, too. (Reform just put it back in their siddur).
in the right jewish hood if you are part of the community and u tell the tuition board at the local school your not paying and the kids are going to p.s. they will let your kids in foe peanuts...
let them try out judaism with a clean slate. its not fair to confuse kids.
thanks for visiting
Leora said T'cheyat Hamatim seems like a comforting way for a little kid to deal with death. Works for a lot of adults, too.
There is no doubt that the concepts of techiyat hamyatim an olam habah have a very comforting effect on people. it also makes for easy conversations with kids when grandpa dies. However, one of the reasons i have become so skeptical is the fact that neither of these concepts are really brought up in the torah.
if there is no olam habah, doesn't that take away from a huge point of doing mitzvot? How many gedolim in the past shunned pleasures int e hopes that they would get more in the world to come?
In my situation, where i am orthoprax and my wife is OJ, i'm comfortable with the kids growing up with OJ stuff and then sorting it out later. I would be happy to help answer their questions of faith when it comes to that, but at this young age I don't think the extra confusion will help them at all. perhaps if I was really anti-OJ as opposed to just not interested in being part of it I would have a different opinion.
also, since i was OJ and that is how they are growing up, it would be unfair to bring up all thes issues just because i am moving away from OJ.
LubabNoMore,
My main suggestion with raising kids is "listen to them". Hanoch Lanaar alpidarko, and treat them as individuals; they may share your wife's beliefs, or they may share your conflicts. But teens especially don't want speeches from parents.
Rich,
>if there is no olam habah, doesn't that take away from a huge point of doing mitzvot?
I tell my kids all the time to do the mitzvah because it's the right thing to do. I was teaching public school teens last summer, and I couldn't say "You shouldn't do such and such because it's an aveirah". One of the teens wanted to know why he shouldn't do something (plagiarize); would the organization get in trouble? Do you have to have consequences to do the right thing?
Regarding marrying goyim...I had a friend who married a non-Jew. She always had a problem with the hypocrisy she saw the Orthodox Jewish community. Maybe your kids (all of you skeptics!) will be more likely to marry within the Jewish community if you (and the community) allow them to feel comfortable with being believers or skeptics, whatever fits them best. Maybe.
Lubab, you do have a problem.
If you wish not to hurt your wife and still be honest with the children don't lie but have the children be raised religiously according to how things were planned. It doesn't matter if your kids aren't skeptical like you. But it matters to your wife if they are not religious.
Like I said you do have a problem. My kids are grown up and set in their ways already, but now I have to worry about grandchildren asking uncomfortable questions. I just say to them ask you father what he thinks. Now if I can only get my frum wife to think a bit more modern life would be good. Ah actualy life is good. Thank you God or whoever is running this place. Avi
"However, one of the reasons i have become so skeptical is the fact that neither of these concepts are really brought up in the torah."
I respectfully disagree. "Gathered to his people" is a term in the Torah for being gathered to ancestors in the next world. Avraham and Moshe and Aharon clearly were buried away from their people on earth and yet it says in the Torah they were "gathered" to their people. Later outside the Torah in the book of Samuel we see King Saul wishing to conjure up Shmuel from the grave.
R' Gamliel
I respectfully disagree. "Gathered to his people" is a term in the Torah for being gathered to ancestors in the next world. Avraham and Moshe and Aharon clearly were buried away from their people on earth and yet it says in the Torah they were "gathered" to their people. Later outside the Torah in the book of Samuel we see King Saul wishing to conjure up Shmuel from the grave.
I will look into the point you make about "gathering". Do you have any place to read ore about this?
regarding the part in Shmuel, I don't put credence into that per se. Navi is a historical book and I don't believe you can look at it for halachic sources.
Jew FAQ about Olam Haba
"regarding the part in Shmuel, I don't put credence into that per se. Navi is a historical book and I don't believe you can look at it for halachic sources."
Sometimes yes. In any event it shows here belief in an afterlife.
This is a very important post, LNM, and the comments bear it out. Even if both you and your wife were Ortho to the core, you should consider carefully what to teach your kids.
You can't bring a kid up in this world and expect him to be an Orthodox Jew. You can't expect a kid to accept rational beliefs that you hold... kal v'chomer the irrational ones.
Beliefs can change with the wind. Blood ties are forever. I suggest that ANYONE raising a family base it not on any particular religious point of view, but rather on mutual love, respect, and intimacy. The same is true of spousal relationships.
As they say in Ethics of the Fathers (5:19): "Any love that is dependent on a specific thing, as soon as the thing is gone, the love is gone as well. But love that depends on no specific thing lasts forever."
I'm pretty honest about things. I used to read the Midrash Says at the Shabbos table, but now the kids know that very little of it is to be taken literally and the message is what is more important. We'll also discuss archeological findings, myth, other religions, "heretical" views of Torah, science and evolution, "how do we know if its true" questions, etc etc. Above all I want them to THINK and QUESTION and not be mindless robots.
Everyone has been taken out of day school and now attends public school. This is not a result of my non-doxic attitude, but simply because the Jewish schools here are lousy. I'm somewhat unhappy with this but - even though they feel out of place at times - they are happier there and are getting a superior education with much more individually crafted educational programs.
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