The j-blogs are all a twitter about the Ha'aretz story 5 Haredi men beat woman who refused to move to back of bus. Unfortunately, this type of story isn't new (link). There have also been unsubstantiated stories like this told in the past. The fact that these attacks seem to be recurring is quite disturbing.
I'm interested in the reasons why these stories get so much attention. What do these stories tell us about ultra-Orthodox Jews? What do they tell us about god, or religion? Or do they even tell us anything at all?
At the very least, critics of the haredi (skeptics, former haredi, modern orthodox, etc.) latch on to these stories because they show the ultra-religious in a bad light. But the stories have real interest because religious people think of themselves as better than others. Their arrogance comes from a belief that they are following god's One True Will. A belief each sect separately holds. Chabad thinks they are better than the Satmars. The Misnagdim think they are better than the Chassidim. And all Orthodox think they are better than the Conservative and Reform. This holier-than-thou attitude creates resentment so when the religious are acting like dumb fools others relish in the hypocrisy.
Does this prove that god, Judaism or a particular sect is wrong? No, not really. These incidences only tell us that the community is wrong in believing that "someone Jewish would never act that way." People are people.
Many recommend Orthopraxy because they believe "the foundation of Jewish culture can create a wonderful positive community" but the truth is the same foundation can also create vicious, arrogant monsters.
18 comments:
Yes, it this sort of behavior is disgusting and is a danger of religious thinking. Yet it is true that in any cultural, legal and religious system, there are mishiganas who distort and use beliefs to justify vandalism or bullying. Basically these youths are ignorant bullies who channel their need for bullying into 'kosher' violence. Even though I think that the separate seating on public buses is outrageous, I can't honestly villify a whole community.
"Many recommend Orthopraxy because they believe "the foundation of Jewish culture can create a wonderful positive community" but the truth is the same foundation can also create vicious, arrogant monsters."
Modern Orthodoxy/Orthopraxy offers a compromise, in that it retains the Jewish traditions but tempers them with level headed common sense and progressive humanisitic values. There is no unquestioning allegiance to a Rabbi or a book.
> I can't honestly villify a whole community.
My goal is to point out that positive Jewish culture is a function of those who interpret it. Judaism can go both ways. The report also reads:
Police forces that arrived at the scene to arrest the men were attacked by dozens of ultra-Orthodox men who punctured the tires of their vehicles, allowing the assailants to escape.
It would seem the community enables this kind of behavior.
>It would seem the community enables this kind of behavior
Unfortunately, ultraorthodox men are not immune to human nature, including mob mentality...
I agree that there's a problem there, but I can't generalize too much any more than I can say that the African-American community enables mugging or whatever. What we can say is that there's a community problem that's not being adequately dealt with.
I don't know, perhaps I'm being naive, but I would imagine that if you took a poll in the Cheredi community very few would condone this kind of violence.
How anyone could possibly condone this as part of the jewish religion is beyond me.
Aside from the actual halacha against the beating, I'd be interested to know how these oh-so "religious" individuals were able to beat this woman without touching her.
I'd love to see these 5 guys get there asses kicked by the husbands of these women they torment.
I live in Israel and it is precisely incidents like this that drive a wedge between chareidim and the rest of the population. It isn't so much that 5 hooligans did this, but that the whole community felt it was ok to sweep it under the rug and not let the police do their job.
> I can't generalize too much any more than I can say that the African-American community enables mugging
African-American leaders decry violence in their communities on a regular basis. On the other hand, in Israel, it seems some communities support throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos. If this story about the beating on the bus is to be believed then there were two violent incidents: the beating of the woman and Israeli solider on the bus, and the mini riot against the police when the attackers were to be arrested. I don't think all Haredi people are evil, far from it, but you have to see this as a pattern of condoned violence.
"But the stories have real interest because religious people think of themselves as better than others. Their arrogance comes from a belief that they are following god's One True Will."
Democrats and Republicans think they have the better path. You have Reform and Conservative rabbis saying they have the better path. It is untrue for you to be saying "religious people think of themselves as better than others. Their arrogance comes from a belief that they are following god's One True Will." How they view themselves and others vary with the individual. NonOrthodoxy sees a challenge to its integrity in Orthodoxy so it does create resentment against the Orthodox but resentment is the problem of the resenter. If people get inflamed by being passionate about their beliefs bad things can sometimes happen. If it happens with some Orthodox individuals about religion it is bad but it happens with them because they are passionate about religion. NonOrthodoxy has a hard time getting it's membership enmasse to have religion be more than an institutional experience. As a result usually it would take a secular cause to get violence to be exhibited by a member.
"Lubab No More said...
> I can't generalize too much any more than I can say that the African-American community enables mugging
African-American leaders decry violence in their communities on a regular basis. On the other hand, in Israel, it seems some communities support throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos. If this story about the beating on the bus is to be believed then there were two violent incidents: the beating of the woman and Israeli solider on the bus, and the mini riot against the police when the attackers were to be arrested. I don't think all Haredi people are evil, far from it, but you have to see this as a pattern of condoned violence."
I am unaware of it being condoned by the leadership of their communities certainly not of the mainstream Chareidi. The condemnation against violence has caused any violence to be as low as it is. In the African American community the leadership is political and the results haven't been as good.
"Basically these youths are ignorant bullies who channel their need for bullying into 'kosher' violence."
True and to be fair at least mostly viewed as such even in their own communitiies. It's like with a riot where people take advantage of a cause to steal and do violence. Come to think of it it happens in war too.
>but the truth is the same foundation....
Well, the thing is, its NOT the same foundation. MO's, for example may share a belief in TMS, but the similarities end there. Such violence would not spring from them because their hashkafot of Judaism wont allow it to.
>African-American leaders decry violence in their communities on a regular basis.
Come on, you're joking right?
Holy Hyrax
> > but the truth is the same foundation....
> MO's, for example may share a belief in TMS but the similarities end there.
Sounds like the same foundation to me.
>> African-American leaders decry violence in their communities on a regular basis.
> Come on, you're joking right?
No.
Lubab, have you ever compared rates of violent crime and substance abuse for similar Frum and non-Frum communities?
Let's say your doctor would tell you to stop smoking, because it causes lung cancer. You would answer, no, because non-smokers also can suffer from lung cancer, which is true. There are many causes for cancer. However would your position be reasonable?
And just incidentally, this story about the bus may not even be true. Does anyone remember the case of Israel Vales? I think he was acquitted, but I'm not sure.
Don't believe everything you read.
>Sounds like the same foundation to me.
Well, THAT part of it is, but how its interpreted and how it is used is utilized is different.
>No.
What are you talking about? Any real violence that goes on in black communities is STILL not being talked about. Sharpton, and Jesse are only out there when the cameras are out and some charge of racism is issued.
Holy Hyrax,
>Well, THAT part of it is, but how its interpreted and how it is used is utilized is different.
Again, my goal is to point out that positive Jewish culture is a function of those who interpret it.
> What are you talking about? Any real violence that goes on in black communities is STILL not being talked about.
Bill Cosby provides the most prominent, recent example of a Black leader speaking out about violence in the African-American community. He also offers ways to address that and other issues.
Here's a link to an NBC piece that followed Cosby's appearance on Meet the Press just last week.
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&brand=msnbc&vid=114b17e3-6bd8-4798-923e-cc44a34c67fa
>Bill Cosby...
You are right, and I agree with him. But he is not a black leader that people listen to. Nothing that he says is being considered by the "real" black leaders.
Bill Cosby doesn't have the big influence. Are you going to say that since the left produces some violent personalities that that means that the Left is therefore wrong on that account? Don't people rather have to evaluate what the Left and Right stand for? Same with Judaism.
Here before you naively make grand pronouncements on reality try reading The Goldilocks Enigma by Paul Davies http://arts.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/article1956994.ece if you dare. It seems to me that you have always had less of a connection to Judaism then many others and you are not interested in anything but a kind hedonism as exemplified by your interpretation of what you consider the original Koheles. If you are not interested in doing anything but finding excuses not to believe then you are not really into searching and your wife will deserve an honest reply in that regard and I would say you have to be honest with yourself too. Blogging is not therapy unless it is being used for real exploration.
"There have also been unsubstantiated stories like this told in the past. The fact that these attacks seem to be recurring is quite disturbing."
Are they? I know with Miriam Shear all that has been admitted by the bus driver is that there was disagreement about her being where she was on the bus. The case is still being investigated.
Lubab,
What does Anita Hill have to do with this?
Ichabod Chrain
Ichabod,
Yeah, I'm an idiot. I meant Rosa Parks. When I posted it at whatever ungodly (har, har) hour I mixed up my oppressed African-American women. I will edit the title.
Thanks for pointing it out.
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