Today was great.
I was off for Columbus Day, the kid was being watched by someone else, and my wife and I got to spend some quality time together. After the past few days (here and here) it was a much needed break. Last night we had a really good discussion. Maybe discussion is too casual a word. We had an all out heart-to-heart. It was cathartic. We both got a lot off our chests and I basically committed to orthopraxy by saying I'll keep looking for God/Judaism. Whatever the case, she was feeling much better after our discussion. I'm not thrilled about continuing to go through the motions but it beats the hell out'a talking about ending our marriage. I recognize that this may not be a permanent solution but I'm not working on solutions at the moment. I want her to see my point of view and love me anyway. If that'll take time, then I'll give it time. At one point today she kind of joked about how I don't believe. Maybe she is accepting the situation a little? Who knows. It felt good though. Nice change of pace.
We made something of a date out of the day. We went to see The Kingdom. The movie is centered around a terrorist attack on Americans in Saudi Arabia. Not a perfect movie but I found it interesting. It offers some intense action set-pieces and throws in a little something to think about. We were talking about the movie afterward. My mind made a direct connection between the terrorists actions and religion. Because of our intense discussions about religion lately I chose my words carefully. I stuck to catch phrases like "fundamentalist Islam" and all that crap. One of the things I didn't say is that I believe that if the Torah had been interpreted a little differently some Jews might have been just as militant as some Muslims are. The bit about Amalek could easily have been interpreted into some sort of Jewish equivalent to jihad.
Speaking of my theories, in general I want to keep blogging on my issues with Judaism but I feel like riling against religion is at odds with my commitment (to my wife) to rediscover it. I honestly wonder how this will play out...
Final note, I'm kind of surprised by the fact that only one believer has emailed me in response to yesterday's post. Are all the readers of my blog fellow skeptics? C'mon (frum) people! Give me a reason to return to the fold. ("To make your wife happy" is only a reason to be orthoprax and probably not sustainable.) I'm all ears.
35 comments:
Sounds like progress to me. But steel yourself: this may be a roller coaster ride with your wife. Be loving. Bring her flowers. Make her feel good about herself... she may be questioning her own judgment right about now. Reassure her that she's made good choices, that you can work through this stuff.
I think the one thing Orthodoxy really needs to do is recognize the fact that they may have gotten it all wrong. The rabbis should sing that from the rooftops. Only then will Orthodox Judaism come into its own.
Until then, it's a spider web that we're caught in. In the words of Rabbi Akiba: m'tsuda prusa al kol hachayim.
And the rabbis who know, but keep silent? They have blood on their hands.
I don't know about you, but i don't question the belief in G-d
but question my ability or my desire to follow halachah and the minhagin as chasidus teaches
it is very difficult, especially if you are having problems in life
You have to admit that Gemarra and Chasidus could not have been made up by man
Think about how great of a person the Rebbe was, and everything that he accomplished, could this have been done by a non religious person?
Don't dwell on the bad things of Lubavitch or the rebbe, concentrate on the good
Also even if you reject what i said before about torah, you have to admit religious jews are the symbol of yiddishkite much more than non religious people, with no disresppect to non religous people, but judaism or israel will not continue if it wasn't for the orthodox part of the religion
more to come
p.s if you are in ny and want to speak about this over lunch etc, i will be happy to
Aaron, despite once sharing your opinion I disagree with you on a number of points.
"You have to admit that Gemarra and Chasidus could not have been made up by man"
Gemarra is of a record of men debating Jewish law. How is that not the work of man?
Where do you believe Chasidus came from?
"Think about how great of a person the Rebbe was, and everything that he accomplished, could this have been done by a non religious person?"
Of course non-religions people are capable of accomplishing amazing things. Take Norman Borlaug for example. He has probably saved a billion lives, literally. The Rebbe built a network able to effectivly get a lot of people to become Lubavitch. But, the Rebbe's accomplishments with regard to humanitarian efforts have been meager by comparison.
"with no disresppect to non religous people, but judaism or israel will not continue if it wasn't for the orthodox part of the religion"
I think the opposite is true. If it weren't for the non-religious Israel would cease to exist. The refusal by the orthodox to enlist in the Israeli army in any meaningful way shows who has been actually defending the land.
Where do you think the millions of non-religious Jews come from? They are not all people who went off the derech. Despite what your rebbeim have told you Reform and Conservative Jews do not all leave Judaism. They are an on-going continuation of it.
I find young people such as yourself utterly fascinating & courageous for revealing such a private part of your lives. I, too stem from a Lubavitcher family with one difference: I am 60 years old now and have thoughts & feelings for over 40 years parallel to yours of today.There was time when I would walk into 770 and everyone knew my name immediately even though I never grew a beard or walked the walk. This is not something that you discuss with the guy sitting near you in shul, your first cousins and certainly not parents. So what do you do? How does one grapple with this? I don't think I have the ultimate solution but what I haveseems to work for me and it will have to do till I am no more. I am not religious/frum- on the inside- but on the outside I may give the appearance of modern ortho as I wear a kipah much of the time. I don't have much of an opportunity to at non kosher as my wife will not go into a non kosher restaurant and with elevated cholesterol the drive in window at Burger King is a thing of the past.I don't do mechallel shabbos in public as I still live in an orthodox community and go to shul once a week albeit for kiddush. These sentiments have only been revealed to my wife, my mother and a few very close boyhood friends who btw share this with me.
And so my friend this is the way it is. We have friends, supportive community & children who love us regardless of our degree of jewishness. It's something you have to feel and we just don't. As a postscript, during the final 2 years of the Rebbes life I was one of those who actually beleived that he was Moshiach. But when I walked past his bier and witnessed the crazies dancing on Eastern Pkwy it was the end of the end for me!
“The bit about Amalek could easily have been interpreted into some sort of Jewish equivalent to jihad.”
Impossible as this wasn’t a conflict of religions.
"I think the opposite is true. If it weren't for the non-religious Israel would cease to exist. The refusal by the orthodox to enlist in the Israeli army in any meaningful way shows who has been actually defending the land.
Where do you think the millions of non-religious Jews come from? They are not all people who went off the derech."
Not all Orthodox refuse especially the Modern Orthodox don't refuse at all. Further if Israel were to be as it will because of birthrates, mainly Orthodox in population then you would have by necessity a wave of Orthodox Jews in the military. You can't go according to the present situation where a nonreligious Jew may do work for the state and so relieve the Orthodox from having to worry about questions such as Shabbos. You have to picture a future in which this will no longer be always if at all viable.
"Despite what your rebbeim have told you Reform and Conservative Jews do not all leave Judaism. They are an on-going continuation of it."
They're mostly not in Israel and the Conservative are losing out to the Reform mainly because of Intermarriage. The Reform have heavy intermarriage. Most children of intermarriages do not commit to Judaism.
“C'mon (frum) people! Give me a reason to return to the fold.”
Well check out my site. Although my site is not dedicated to anything in particular. But mostly I think you have to think of a reason to return. Start from ground zero. First Action:DROP ALL YOUR IDEAS. Second Action:RETHINK EVERYTHING Third Action:CHALLENGE EVERYTHING Fourth Action:DECIDE WHAT YOU CONSIDER THE BASIS FOR TRUTH Fifth Action:GO FOR IT
Good luck again :)
I believe that if the Torah had been interpreted a little differently some Jews might have been just as militant as some Muslims are.
This is egregiously unfair. "If the Torah had been interpreted a little differently"?! But it wasn't interpreted differently! It was interpreted the way it was interpreted, and that's because the Jewish people, by their nature, are not bloodthirsty fanatic killers.
The plain fact that Jews did not interpret their scriptures in such a way as to become a society of terrorist maniacs, is a powerful testament to the nature of Jewish culture. Just as the fact that Muslims did interpret their scriptures in such a way is a testament to the nature of their culture.
Your statement is like saying, "If Mother Theresa had been a little different, she might have been an axe murderer".
If you have criticisms of Judaism, that's fine -- go ahead and criticize. But knocking it on the basis of some imagined, hypothetical Judaism in a non-existent, parallel reality? That just BS.
lurker, you misunderstand me.
My point is that the difference is in the Jewish and Muslim cultures. I think we agree on this point. It is the culture that interprets the texts. On the other hand there is no magic inherent in the Torah or the biology of Jewish people that would prevent them from being "bloodthirsty fanatic killers."
Lubab- Torah She'Baal Peh, if you believe in it, interprets the texts. Even within the Torah's own call for an attacks {Amalek, Milchemes Mitzva} Torah She'Baal Peh limits that to certain situations and with rules of engagement.
Additionally, history will reinforce the fact that the Jewish nation does not wantonly commit acts of violence. There has never been a time where the Jewish nation as a whole has been oppressive to their neighbors nor been exceedingly violent amongst themselves. Even in times of strife the Jewish people have kept their dignity. Thus, aside for faith, there is a practical basis to believe that the Jewish people are Rachmonim.
Nemo,
>>Torah She'Baal Peh, if you believe in it, interprets the texts.
If I believed in TSBP I would probably believe that there is "magic inherent in the Torah."
>> history will reinforce the fact that the Jewish nation does not wantonly commit acts of violence.
Except for the occasions detailed in Tanach. Of course, you may believe that many of those wars were ordered by God.
>In modern times there is palpable bloodlust coming from the right-wing settler movement.
WOW, Can you please elaborate on that?
lurker,
"This is egregiously unfair. "If the Torah had been interpreted a little differently"?! But it wasn't interpreted differently! It was interpreted the way it was interpreted, and that's because the Jewish people, by their nature, are not bloodthirsty fanatic killers."
I have to agree with orthoprax here; if the jews really weren't bloodthirsty fanatics there would be a lot less stone throwing and public physical abuse by chareidim on,mostly,other frum Jews.(specifically in Ramat beit Shemesh and Bnai Brak.) I think the qualities of eing "bloodthirsty" and "fanatical" arerpobablymore likely to come out in ultra-religous communities. when you combine pressure-cooker type tension with a fundamentalist ideology, the result is never going to be pretty.
>I have to agree with orthoprax here; if the jews really weren't bloodthirsty fanatics there would be a lot less stone throwing and public physical abuse by chareidim on,mostly,other frum Jews.(specifically in Ramat beit Shemesh and Bnai Brak.) I think the qualities of eing "bloodthirsty" and "fanatical" arerpobablymore likely to come out in ultra-religous communities
Yes, it exists in ALL fanatical communities. Right OR left.
HH,
"WOW, Can you please elaborate on that?"
Where do you think folks like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir come from? While the Kach party is not legal in Israel and is considered a terrorist organization, it still does have its supporters.
"Orthoprax said...
Nemo,
"There has never been a time where the Jewish nation as a whole has been oppressive to their neighbors nor been exceedingly violent amongst themselves."
Are you familiar with the whole Second Temple period after the Maccabees? John Hyrcanus, son of Shimon Maccabee, forcibly converted the nearby Idumeans (Edomites) to Judaism. He also destroyed the Samaritan Temple on Har Grizim.
During the revolt against Rome, Sicarii committed terrorist attacks against Jews who they thought were too comfortable with Roman rule. They, by doing all sorts of sabotage, undermined Jersulem's protection and forced them to fight rather than stay in siege and broker a peace. The Gemara reports that the Zealots burned Jerusalem's food supply."
Ah but Orthoprax Nemo said "Nemo,
"There has never been a time where the Jewish nation as a whole has been oppressive to their neighbors nor been exceedingly violent amongst themselves."
As whole he said.
"Orthoprax said...
HH,
"WOW, Can you please elaborate on that?"
Where do you think folks like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir come from? While the Kach party is not legal in Israel and is considered a terrorist organization, it still does have its supporters."
How many Baruch Goldsteins and Yigal Amirs were there? How many by contrast do you have on the other side? Yigal Amir was influenced by someone who worked for the Shin Bet and founded an organization to make the right look bad and the organization consisted of several souls including Yigal Amir. Yigal Amir caused the plan to backfire by actually assassinating Rabin. Baruch Goldstein who had helped Jewish and Arab patients went crazy over seeing killing and so fired.
Lubab- "you may believe that many of those wars were ordered by God."
Yes, most of those wars were to a specific end, i.e. conquer and defense, not bloodthirsty blitzkriegs.
Orthoprax- To be honest I was regretting what I said as I wrote above that there is no history of violence amongst the whole of the Jewish people. My misgivings about the statements were mostly because of various stories in Tanach and Gemara. I must admit that there are various accounts of violence, but the INCIDENCE of Jewish violence is negligible.
The very fact that the recorded stories that we do have of violence are scant and scarce does lend credence to the fact that violence is not an inherent Jewish trait. There were events that transpired, but they were evidently rare occurrences. The few that took place were handed down amongst the rest of the Jewish history.
In addition, current violence by right-wing Israelis is absolutely trite in comparison to "real violence." Realistically speaking, there are only two major events that are repeatedly cited by critics such as yourself and CNN in "G-d's Warriors" to somehow morally equate Jews with other religious zealots. Further, the CNN documentary that was bent on showing the Jewish/Israeli religious violence could only come up with about three other such acts of violence, performed for political ends, some of which were foiled in the end and none of which had nearly the severity of your average suicide bomber or crusader. Presumably if CNN couldn't dig up anything better than the run of the mill citations, there isn't much more. I'd venture to say that in Israel's nearly sixty years you couldn't come up with more than fifty recorded acts or attempted act of violence by civilians. I think also that the attacks themselves are not motivated- like some non-Jewish violence- merely for killing, but were actually retaliatory, pre-emtive or staged for political gain at all costs.
Miri- I think that given the environs, aggressiveness can be spawned even amongst the best of men. These people, for whatever reason, believe that they're doing right and they'll continue to do it. It's not leading anyone to murder and rape though...
Nemo,
"The very fact that the recorded stories that we do have of violence are scant and scarce does lend credence to the fact that violence is not an inherent Jewish trait."
No, it's a statement on a culture, not biology. Jews are people too and can be lead to violence just like anyone else.
"There were events that transpired, but they were evidently rare occurrences. The few that took place were handed down amongst the rest of the Jewish history."
Who knows what has been lost to us from ancient times? I do recall Tanach being rather bloody with battles taking up many pages. The tribe of Binyamin was almost wiped out!
Jews have been rather non-violent for the last couple thousand years - but Jews also haven't been in much of a position of power to do much violence either.
"In addition, current violence by right-wing Israelis is absolutely trite in comparison to "real violence.""
What does that mean? I think it's very serious and really violent.
"Realistically speaking, there are only two major events that are repeatedly cited by critics such as yourself and CNN in "G-d's Warriors" to somehow morally equate Jews with other religious zealots."
No, I equate Jewish zealots with the violent zealots of other people. Kach is little more than a mirror image of Hamas. I think Jews are generally better than not, but there are plenty of exceptions and I would say it's due to a matter of culture than constitution.
"No, it's a statement on a culture, not biology."
Who's talking Biology?
"I do recall Tanach being rather bloody with battles taking up many pages."
Battles yes. So is the U.S. having battles.
"Kach is little more than a mirror image of Hamas."
No it's not. Who would be people wantto end up with? I know I'd pick Kach.
I Kings 20:31 And his servants said to him, Behold now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings; let us, I beg you, put sackcloth on our loins, and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the king of Israel; perhaps he will save your life.
This was thousands of years ago yet.
RG,
"Where was anything like what you see amongst the Arabs?"
Is that the standard for comparison now? What high bars you have...
"Oh yeah than why aren't the violent extremists causing anything more than several incidents over years time. Where are the day in and day out killings and violence?"
Because most of them intend on working through normative political channels first. When that fails, people get violent.
"I was apologizing for no one. I was pointing out the lack of simple cause and affect between Amir's and Goldstein's beliefs and their actions."
No, I think it is straighfoward. Not all KKK members have lynched a black man, but if someone were to lynch a black man it wouldn't surprise me if he was a member of the KKK.
"Who's talking Biology?"
Nemo was talking about non-violence being an "inherent Jewish trait."
"Battles yes. So is the U.S. having battles."
To the point of similarly almost wiping out a tribe? In any case, yes, I wouldn't call the US a non-violent nation. The US has gone on wars for profit and permitted slavery in its borders for much of its history. The US gov't also violently persecuted the Mormons and Native Americans.
Like most nations, the US presents a mixed bag.
"No it's not. Who would be people wantto end up with? I know I'd pick Kach."
Not if you were an Arab. Duh.
>Where do you think folks like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir come from? While the Kach party is not legal in Israel and is considered a terrorist organization, it still does have its supporters.
That is a sweeping generalization toward the settler movement. It's not like the arabs have made it easy to love them and while I don't condone killing, (from the few you mentioned) I can certainly understand the hatred.
""Who's talking Biology?"
Nemo was talking about non-violence being an "inherent Jewish trait.""
Look mate, I never said "biological." That was your contribution.
I was referring to something more along the lines of an inherent spiritual trait, but you may call it cultural if you will. The conclusion is the same either way, give or take the G-d aspect.
Will write discuss this all more tomorrow...
HH,
"That is a sweeping generalization toward the settler movement."
I had referred specifically to the right-wing types. If you'd prefer I say the "extreme right-wing" instead then it's just a matter of semantics.
"Orthoprax said...
HH,
"That is a sweeping generalization toward the settler movement."
I had referred specifically to the right-wing types. If you'd prefer I say the "extreme right-wing" instead then it's just a matter of semantics."
Still a sweeping generalization. Where was the civil war upon leaving Gaza?
"Still a sweeping generalization. Where was the civil war upon leaving Gaza?"
Not as far away as you might think. I am actually very concerned about what the reaction would be if a large scale removal from the West Bank was called.
"Orthoprax said...
RG,
"That makes no sense. The Arabs aren't waiting."
Because they have no normative political channels..."
They have:The Palestinian Authority and in Iraq and in Lebanon they have a government. They still kill each other
""We're not talking statistics here and Yigal Amir and Goldstein were not Kach members."
They were Kahane sympathizers. Their acts follow from their beliefs. It's not like they were members of Peace Now."
Peace Now helps the Arabs.
""No one was trying to."
20:48 'The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire.'
Sounds like accident to me."
They were not trying to wipe out a tribe.
""Oh yeah. If you had a choice as an Arab between giving up to Hamas Kach hands you'ld be dumb to give up to Hamas. Kach is vigil Anti. It's not cold blooded like Hamas."
If I were an Arab I would prefer Hamas to Kach. 100%."
Then thank G-d you're not an Arab because you wouldn't be a smart one.
"Kach is pretty cold blooded. See all the nice things they say about Goldstein. They _applaud_ him and wish he had killed more."
Assuming you're but do they kill more?
"Orthoprax said...
"Still a sweeping generalization. Where was the civil war upon leaving Gaza?"
Not as far away as you might think. I am actually very concerned about what the reaction would be if a large scale removal from the West Bank was called."
It's easy for us to talk. There was a reason Israel captured the West Bank to begin with. There will be no Palestinian State in the West Bank because the Palestinian Authority will not give up on claiming all Israel and Israel cannot draw up new boundaries in the West Bank unilaterally.
What about those extremists on the Left who urge violence against those on the right? What about those on the left who are so extreme they give support to the enemy?
RG,
"They have:The Palestinian Authority and in Iraq and in Lebanon they have a government. They still kill each other."
Um, yeah. I'm talking about real government.
"They were not trying to wipe out a tribe."
And? Was the violence somehow ok because of that detail?
"Peace Now helps the Arabs."
How so? Help them hurt Jews?
"What about those extremists on the Left who urge violence against those on the right?"
Such as?
"Assuming you're but do they kill more?"
What's your point? Just because they haven't doesn't mean they won't.
What we gotta do is make peace with the Arabs. That is the single most important thing we can do as a people. Everything else right now is commentary. It will take effort on both sides to understand each other. We might start by rediscovering the common ground between Judaism and Islam. Walk into a Halal market and see if it doesn't remind you of the kosher butcher. Religion can be a powerful divider, but it can also be a powerful unifying force.
This year, Rosh Hashana and the first of Ramadan fell out on the same dates. I hope this year is a step forward and not backwards for peace.
"Orthoprax said...
RG,
"They have:The Palestinian Authority and in Iraq and in Lebanon they have a government. They still kill each other."
Um, yeah. I'm talking about real government."
Well the terorists organizations are allowed to exist with the government encouragement. In Iraq their's a real central government and yet different elements still fight each other.
""They were not trying to wipe out a tribe."
And? Was the violence somehow ok because of that detail?"
It was a war.
""Peace Now helps the Arabs."
How so? Help them hurt Jews?"
They side with the enemy and help them.
""What about those extremists on the Left who urge violence against those on the right?"
Such as?"
Those urging violence against the settlers urging civil war but not getting it from the right.
""Assuming you're but do they kill more?"
What's your point? Just because they haven't doesn't mean they won't."
But why? They haven't whereas the enemy is constantly attacking.
"Benjamin said...
What we gotta do is make peace with the Arabs."
We've been trying. It's not a matter of misunderstanding.
RG,
"It was a war."
No, it was a massacre. Read your Tanach. If modern armies went around to defenseless villages, killing all the people and burning all the buildings that would be a war crime - if not considered out and out genocide.
It's true that that's what happened in war back in the Iron Age, but it's not something a non-violent people would be prone to do, hmm?
"In Iraq their's a real central government and yet different elements still fight each other."
Um... Are you keeping up with the news at all?
In any case, the point is not whether there is a government or not. The point is whether the groups think they can achieve their goals through political action or not. The groups in Iraq causing trouble are anti-government.
"Those urging violence against the settlers urging civil war but not getting it from the right."
Who? Who are these mysterious people?
"But why? They haven't whereas the enemy is constantly attacking."
Do I need to repeat myself? Because they figure they can make it happen politically and they cannot achieve their goals on their own.
Nemo,
"Yes, most of those wars were to a specific end, i.e. conquer and defense, not bloodthirsty blitzkriegs."
I don'thave to repeat this really, but I will; the whole massacring Binyamin thing? see,at the end,there was this bit where they kind of went "oops, maybe G-d didn't really want us to wipe them out completely after all..." hence tu bi'av. remember, it was a war of vengance. just saying.
"These people, for whatever reason, believe that they're doing right and they'll continue to do it. It's not leading anyone to murder and rape though..."
Ah, and there exactly is the crux of the entire issue. yes, they BELIEVE they're doing right.
But this means they're allowed to beat up young men AND WOMEN in the name of G-d? But they're so sure of it, they couldn't be wrong. I don't know, it doesn't make you wonder about the confidence in your own beliefs at all?
Orthoprax,
" Kach is little more than a mirror image of Hamas".
I'm sorry, bc I know this issue was already adressed, but bc I ama massachist; say whatyou want about Yigal Amir and Boruch Goldstein. No member of Kach is raising their children on MickyMouse television shows encouraging suicide. The comparison ends there.
"They were Kahane sympathizers. Their acts follow from their beliefs.
See all the nice things they say about Goldstein. They _applaud_ him and wish he had killed more."
I should just make a blanket rule about participating in Boruch Goldstein discussions. However; it has been myimpression that the man did what he did to prevent a pogrom that EVERYONE in the area, including local authorities,knew was going to happen. And for which they later found proof in the form of an arsenal being stored n the Arab section of mearat hamachpelah. but of course, that bit doesn't make good news.
"If I were an Arab I would prefer Hamas to Kach. 100%.
I have to
agree with the other guy; you'd be pretty stupid to trust yourself to Hamas in asolutely any scenario whatsoever. they think nothing of killing one of their own for absolutely no reason.
Just to return to the topic of the original post, if I may, for a moment...
LNM, what may make your wife feel better (at least in the interim) is something my rabbi once told me- that at its core Judaism is more about doing than believing (Na'aseh first, Nishma second). In other words, Judaism is chock full of things to do- practices, mitzvos, observances. It is more important to do, even if you don't necessarily (yet?) believe. This, he said, is in contrast to Christianity and other religions where belief is paramount. So do for now, and maybe belief will come.
So if you are going to be prax for your wife, she might feel better about it knowing the above point of view.
>I want to keep blogging on my issues with Judaism but I feel like riling against religion is at odds with my commitment (to my wife) to rediscover it.
why not focus less on the ontological claims of God's existence and more on the (good) values of the tradition? Also, many of the minhagim are interesting when you don't look at them as a decree from a divine and unknowable being
Spinoza has a really good point. you might be more accepting of orthodox practices if you consider it cultural instead of religous.
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