Wednesday, August 29, 2007

Why I'm no more a Lubab

I want to give thanks to FailedMessiah for featuring my blog today!

I grew up in Chabad. I really gave it my all. I was not a "bad kid" or an "at risk youth" nor did I fit any other category worthy of a catchphrase. In fact, as a klaineh boucher (little student) I was a very well behaved kid. I believed it was all TRUE and that if any human being was honest with themselves and learnt Toyrah they too would see its perfection and convert. Of course this was the line fed me by my Rebbes (teachers, not to be confused with THE Rebbeh). As a kid I didn't really ask too many "But why?" questions. I was willing to swallow it whole.

At the same time my parents believed in going to college - gasp - and believed it necessary that I receive a secular education. My cheder (school) only gave us an hour of secular studies a day which my parents amply supplemented with books and educational television (3-2-1 Contact!). I consistently scored high on science tests. I loved the idea that everything has a reason and purpose - just like I learnt in cheder! I remember that at this age I reasoned "either I will be Jewish or an atheist, because either Toyrah is true or, everyone has got it wrong".

I went to a high school in the U.S. (I'm American but when talking Lubavitch you need to think globally) which had a pretty good english (secular studies) program. I saw some friends drift off the derech but, being the good boy I always was, I never seriously questioned god. I did ignore most hallacha about interacting with girls though. It just didn't make any sense to me to fight wanting to find, hang out with, and date the maydellach (girls). Later, I would daven (pray) for forgiveness but, to use the classic baseball analogy, religious restrictions kept me stranded around 2nd base.

Fast forward to post high school. Many religious Jews in America go to Israel for a year of studies following high school. I choose a Lubavitch yeshiva abroad, not in Israel. In high school I hadn't been questioning god that much but I had stopped following a lot of the Chabad customs I had been brought up with. This wasn't a reaction to the death of the Rebbeh or a rebellion per se it just wasn't a priority. So, I saw my year abroad as a chance to get back on the bandwagon.

At Yeshiva there was a lot of talk about The Rebbeh and his death/aliveness. My high school was pretty mainstream and my BT parents didn't get caught up in the "Moshiach is coming! Break out the yellow flags!" hysteria so this was the first time I was seeing Mishachists (Messanists) up close. I try to be as intellectually honest as I can so I gave my fellow students and mentors an honest opportunity to convince me that The (dead) Rebbeh was in fact the long awaited messiah. I had been to The Rebbeh's funeral. I had seen the casket. I've always thought myself a rational man and as far as I could tell he wasn't coming back, but I was committed to TRUTH enough to keep an open mind. I sat with these guys and they showed me source after source that the messiah would come from the grave. I kept asking questions like "But when he was alive we Lubavitchers argued the opposite!" That was then, they countered. Many argued "The Rebbeh is HERE spiritually, just not physically". Uh-huh. I came to find that at the end of any of these sessions the bottom line of their argument was "I just have emunah (faith) that The Rebbeh is Moshiach. You just have to have faith". That was enough for me. I was OUT of that camp. But not yet out of Lubavitch. I thought maybe these guys are just the minority. These are just the fools.

The next Tishreh (first month of the Jewish year) I went to Crown Heights, HQ for Lubavitch Int'l, for the high holidays. I was still Mr. Black-Hat-White-Shirt-and-Beard at this point. I was having a great time until Simchas Toyrah (celebration of the Torah/Bible). I went to 770 (Chabad HQ and shul of The Rebbeh) for services. As you may know, during Simchas Toyrah men are called up to carry the Torah scroll around the bimah (podium in the center of the synagogue). Everything was going just fine until they gave The Rebbeh one of these honers. That just didn't work for me at all. I turned to my Lubavitch mentor who was with me there and asked "Let's say I give you 'The Rebbeh is HERE spiritually, just not physically' He still can't physically hold a physical Sayfer Toyrah!" His reply was that "They put it on his shtender (personal podium)." That was the turning point. Until then I was dan l'kaf zechus (giving the benefit of the doubt) that these folks might have a source for their action. For that point on I stopped giving that benefit. It wasn't a violent paradigm shift but the rest of the night I just remember looking at Chabad differently. Instead of seeing a) Chasidim rejoicing in the revelation of the Torah from Sinai to the point of incapacitation I was seeing b) people running in violent circles with the scrolls, and people passed out in their own vomit from too much booze. I honestly had previously interpreted the exact same scene, b), as the wonderful experience described in a).

My change wasn't instant. But it was just a matter of time until I had left the sect entirely.

LNM

31 comments:

Unknown said...

Unfortunately you grew up in a religion which is very similar to Judaism, but whose fundamental beliefs are entirely different.

Lubavitch is just a kind of neochristianity.

You then tried out modern orthodoxy, which is watered don Judasim.

You have therefore never been a part of real Judaism.

I will not waste our time trying to convince you of the correctness of real Judaism, but in you r march to atheism, consider two possibilities:

The world which you see and feel around you is total random and came into its present form in a totally random way. Or

The world which you see and feel around you with all of its order and complexity came into this form with guidance.

In physics we learn that the "natural" tendency is towards increased randomness and disorder. Only an input of energy will bring greater order and decreased randomness.

In ancient times, the popularity of avodah zarah was because of two things: the desire for gilui `arayoth (forbidden sex) and the desire for a shortcut to spirituality.

In modern times, the popularity of atheism, darwinism and several other isms was at least in part to permit forbidden sex. People seek the eastern religions for a shortcut to spirituality. In Judaism, free sex is out, and true spirituality takes a lot of study and work.

Lubab No More said...

Tsvi, first of all, thanks for posting. I like to seriously delve into these issues so please take my comments as serious intellectual challenges, not attacks.

While you may theologically disagree with Chabad, their fundamental beliefs are in line with Yiddishkite. When you call Chabad "neochristianity" you are clearly referencing the post-Rebbe movement which I did not grow up in.

For clearification, I am not a part of modern orthodoxy. I said MO is what my parents would call my practices. In truth I best fit into the "orthodox" group. Not ultra, not modern. Just "stam a-yid".

I like you argument that one of nature's laws is entropy (tendency towards increased disorder) thus implying a "intelligent designer". Not bad. I like that argument a lot. But, LIFE did not appear randomly. It is the result of millennia of trial and error and the diversity (of molecular combinations) that randomness allows.

Also, even if that were to imply a creator, it tells me nothing about the validity of Judism (or any other set of "god given" rules).

Finally, what is your source that "In ancient times... avodah zarah was because of... forbidden sex... and the desire for a shortcut to spirituality" ?

Unknown said...

Shalom...

Please buy a college biology text book, and go through the sections on DNA and photosynthesis. After I did, I asked my agnostic brother who is a geneticist if he believes these absolutely mind-blowingly intricate processes could have developed by random chemical reactions (i.e. by chance), and he told me, "No way."

I don't find MO watered down. There are many very ehrlich and sincere people there who are very into learning and doing mitzvos. And neochristianity vis-a-vis Chabad is the post-Rebbe stuff, even though when the Rebbe was alive there were a very small number of Elokistin.

Miri said...

Lubav-
Interesting. See, I grew up in post-gimmel tamuz chabbad; and mainstream chabbad is still non meshichist, although the politics are increasing the issues within the communities. Anyway, my point is that non-Meshichist chabbad still has a lot of wonderfulnness in it...


Also, are you an atheist now? Or a "just stam yid?" It wasn't clear to me...

Miriam said...

miri: I don't know which segment of Chabad Lubavitch you are referring to when you state that mainstream Lubavitch is non-meshichist.
From my personal experience, and their face to balabatim they are non-meshichist, but at intimate farbrengens most Lubavitchers would belive that the Rebbe is the Moshiach. Even those who claim to be "anti" meshichist merely protest the use of Rebbe Moshiach because of it being a deterrent to attracting people to Chabad.

Nemo said...

Did we go to the same high school? YATP?

You're probably a bit older than me, but I'd just be interested.

Lubab No More said...

Miri, I am both an athiest and stam a'yid. Are the two mutually exclusive?

I still retain my Jewish identity I just don't believe in the practices and theology. I guess you could say I finally understand the "Bagel & Lox Jews".

Daniel said...

I have a sorta love hate relationship with Chabad. I actually prefer chabad shuls that have mostly MO's with cool chabad rabbis.
However many chabadniks -both BT and FFb freak me out.
Once years ago at my hometown Chabad shul during Yom Kippor, the Rabbi was talking about Yonah and said that the king of Ninevah was Pharoah. I said to the chazan sitting next to me" wasn't this story hundreds of years after exodus?" to which he freaked me out by saying" he lived a very long life".
When with a group of lubavs -say at a shabbes tisch, the criticalmass would bring out the most wacko talk-rebbe this rebbe that- I sometimes felt i were in the psyche ward- and had Benjamin Braddock like urges to be rude.
At 770 seeing men chained to the ceiling where they obviously could not daven, but could see the Rebbe was like dropping acid.
I used to wonder that if the Rebbe farted ,did his followers chase after him to whiff the holy smell?
Thank goodness they are not all this way.

Miri said...

LBN-
Mutually exclusive is debatable, but it's not a debate I care about, so whatever.

rapunzel-
It's been quite a while since I was actually in the chabbad community, and it's possible things have deteriorated since I was involved. But I know that at least back in my hometown, the politics were ridiculously divisive. Things can't be that heated if they really believe basically the same things can they?
oh, and by mainstream I mean that th shlichus headquarters are still non-meshichist. or at least they were last time I heard.

Daniel-
I actually remember hearing that about Pharoah; that G-d didn't kill him so that he'd be around to see all the destruction and loss. I'm not sure where the source is, but I think that it's a medrash somewhere; and I remember also hearing that he went on to become a king somewhere else, and it could've been ninveh. Come one though - do you buy that avraham lived 180 years? why couldn't everyone else in that general era have been living that long?

Abandoning Eden said...

miri- I am a demographer/sociologist by trade, and one of the things we learned on the very first day of my phd program was that life expectancy in biblical times was around 30 years old at the most, due to infectious desieses, a crazy misunderstanding of medicine (the theory back then was that illness came from bad smells), malnutrition, and general hazards of living (poor shelter, hunting animals led to lots of accidents, etc). The probability that anyone, let alone such a prominant leader of a religion, would live till 180 at that time period is infinitely small. In fact, even now with all our medical advances, the oldest person ever recorded lived until 122. However there are only 2 or 3 people recorded to have lived past 115 or so. And the idea that sarah had a baby at the age of 99 is just laughable. Either this is totally made up and/or exagerated, or their counting of "years" differed significantly from ours (maybe years=seasons, in which case sarah would have been around 25, which would have been old then for someone to have children, but would actually jive with that whole biology thing)

David said...

In your opinion, after a person dies, is there an after life?

Lubab No More said...

david, as far as I can tell there is no afterlife. On a similar note, as far as I can tell there are no werewolves either.

Unknown said...

“My change wasn't instant. But it was just a matter of time until I had left the sect entirely”

You left Judaism.

Lubav No More, I would like to give you a star and a sticker for being in line with people that for thousands of years did not believe in god, and extra points for starting a blog when there are thousands of books that deal with all your issues, just one thing why against Chabad? Don’t you have a bigger picture and status quo to fight? If you’re against G-D, Lubavitch would seem to be a moot point, why dump your crap on the last chain when your problem is with Moses, the bible and everything Jewish? I just have a problem with you editorial you first hint at being against God because of girls, does not sounds too rational (we can all agree with that) but I get that part we all have desires, then you have a issue with Chabad ideology (even though it really seems you are ignorant from start, evident by your BT parents and lack of study in Chabad ideology in school) that give their leader a ceremonial award and you have a issue with that as if that is what tipped the scale when you clearly had atheistic thoughts way before hand, does no one have a problem with this? It just seems you are ignorant and immature, message: don’t drag Chabad for PR, shoot an arrow at the heavens kick and scream but let’s keep it simple your problem is with G-D not any sect.

Miri said...

Arielle-
My point was that, as long as you're buying into the whole "ppl-lived longer-then" thing, then why wouldn't it apply to Pharoah as much as anyone else? I don't claim that they necessarily did.

Also, can I ask, how exactly did they judge a "bad smell?" Didn't everything kinda smell back then?

Lubab No More said...

adey, you don't get this blog at all. Based on reading your comments and having once also had a strong Lubavitch mind-set I'm guessing you take any criticism of Chabad as an attack and feel an obligation fight it. I'm not impressed by your knee-jerk reaction.

You left Judaism.

The purpose of the post wasn't to describe how I arrived at an atheistic mindset. It was to tell the story of why I specifically left Lubavitch and the reason for my user name. The story took place many years ago.

extra points for starting a blog when there are thousands of books that deal with all your issues

Again, you don't get it. See my first post:
http://lubabnomore.blogspot.com/2007/08/oy.html

If you’re against G-D, Lubavitch would seem to be a moot point, why dump your crap on the last chain

I'm not against god. There is nothing to be against. The purpose of this blog is not to convert. ("Excuse me sir, would you like to STOP putting on tefilin?")

Lubavitch was not the last chain. If anything it was the first.

You also seem to have inferred that I have an agenda to take down Chabad. I don't. I just see it as (yet another) flawed religious organization and one that I don't want to be a part of. Although, I'm sure you interpret that as an affront.

you have a issue with Chabad ideology (even though it really seems you are ignorant from start, evident by your BT parents and lack of study in Chabad ideology in school) that give their leader a ceremonial award and you have a issue with that as if that is what tipped the scale when you clearly had atheistic thoughts way before hand

Because I attended the same educational system you did I will forgive your grammar.

From what I can tell you are saying that "Chabad ideology... [permits them to] give their leader a ceremonial award and you have a issue with that[?]". If you are talking about giving hakafas to dead people then, Yes. I have an issue with that.

as if that is what tipped the scale when you clearly had atheistic thoughts way before hand

That's why they call it "tipping the scale".

it really seems you are ignorant from start, evident by your BT parents and lack of study in Chabad ideology in school

I'm not sure where to begin. To say that I am ignorant because my parents are BTs is exactly the kind of sinas chinam that turned my stomach even when I wore the black hat. What does their being BTs have to do with my knowledge of halacha and chasidus? Would the Rebbe have ever said something like that to anyone? You strike me as the kind of person who would punch a woman in the face over library books.

I studied "Chabad chasidus" grade school thru year abroad. If there is another version of Chabad ideology LMK.

don’t drag Chabad for PR, shoot an arrow at the heavens kick and scream but let’s keep it simple your problem is with G-D not any sect.

My problems were with Chabad. AND I have an issue with the concept of god. If you really want to understand my blog "all you have to do is to open up your eyes" and actually read what I am saying.

LNM

avinoam said...

I grew up in lubavitch myself and in crown heights

I left before the rebbe died but long before then i could see there was unhealthy emphasis on the rebbe over Hashem

I'm frum today but I am neither chassidish or chabad and tsvi is correct in that chabad and chassidus are religions similar to judaism but with very different beliefs

if you actually begin to look at the theology and the nuts and bolts of it, chassidus has added beliefs that are not jewish, particularly the emphasis on the tzaddik as the conduit to Hashem

that's what led chabad astray

when you get back to basics, you turn back to Hashem and get beyond the people

people are fundamentally flawed and imperfect,

you have to look back at what felt true all along and use that as a conduit to Hashem

i'm not going to advance arguments for the existence of G-d. I think the world is an excellent argument for that but I also know that people are quite good at rationalizing away what they can't explain and creating a house of cards around theories that depend on a series of interlinked assumptions. And more importantly the logical arguments are not what really matter in the long run, they're mainly intellectual exercises

what matters is what purpose you see your life having 50 years from now and when you can look seriously at that question, it will decide many of your beliefs too

good luck on your journey

avinoam

Chana Tov said...

Worship of "holy men" began with the early catholic church.
It was they who introduced worship at grave sites of special men.
Along the way Judaism was infected with what are really pagan practices.

Don't allow men to influence you.
You have a tanakh, learn from that
and learn from Hashem.
Men will always get in the way between you and Hashem if you allow it, but, atheism is a stretch. There is every proof for a Creator.Things that cannot be without one.
Simple things like ..where did anything come from?
How does the universe run so beautifully rather than with random chaos if there is no mind behind it.
Don't allow your faith to be destroyed by men.
V

Unknown said...

“The purpose of the post wasn't to describe how I arrived at an atheistic mindset. It was to tell the story of why I specifically left Lubavitch and the reason for my user name. The story took place many years ago.”

If one has a problem, and is riddled with issues regarding a sect and Judaism overall, it is only logical that he won’t agree and/or have proper perspective with the finer details of that religion.
“I'm going to use this blog as an outlet for my non-believing heretical thoughts.”
That’s why you get a star, and get to be in elite company with thousands of others in history.

“Lubavitch was not the last chain. If anything it was the first.”
In your history, not in world history, you get my point.
“If you are talking about giving hakafas to dead people then, Yes, I have an issue with that.”
If you don’t believe in hakafas altogether, why would this bother you? Do I care that in church they have certain religious practices that don’t make sense? If you don’t believe in our religion, why would you care what we do or don’t do?
“That's why they call it, "tipping the scale.”
I guess I didn’t phrase it right, let’s do it again.
You had a problem with G-D since you were a child riddled with doubt whether there is a creator, you push through the system learning bit along the way, which it seems was not enough to satisfy you and resolve your issues regarding G-d and the thing that pushes you over the edge is a practice by a minority sect, I’m sorry that this seems odd to me if I had a problem with a whole religion, minor practices would not really be what TIPS THE SCALE. One has nothing to do with the other. They are two different scales, one is G-D, the other what sect.
“I'm not sure where to begin. To say that I am ignorant because my parents are BTs is exactly the kind of sinas chinam that turned my stomach even when I wore the black hat. What does their being BTs have to do with my knowledge of halacha and chasidus? Would the Rebbe have ever said something like that to anyone? You strike me as the kind of person who would punch a woman in the face over library books”
My parents are both BT’s and we all know that parents imbue one with a frame of mind and knowledge. Arguing this would be moronic, if the parents learnt a lot, such as mine that compensates for the lack of acquired knowledge in their youths, but most BT don’t compensate, and therefore don’t imbue their children with knowledge and genuine feeling(which in my experience actually leads their children to try harder and therefore succeed, but that’s for another time)it seems to me that you lacked parental guidance and knowledge ,and learnt little in grade school (the max one learns in grade school which we can all agree is quite minute)I’m not going to go any further, you are ignorant, saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
“If there is another version of Chabad ideology LMK”
You don’t know the original. There is a plethora of people who would be willing to help you out.
If you want we can discuss Chabad Ideology starting from its leader the Alter Rebbe, but is seems to me that your issues lie with Adam, Abraham and so on.
“My problems were with Chabad. AND I have an issue with the concept of god. If you really want to understand my blog "all you have to do is to open up your eyes" and actually read what I am saying”
Again you lack understanding of my point, start from the beginning of time. Works out all your issues, when you reach the past two hundred years then mention Chabad. Until then don’t use us as PR, so people will come to your blog, how about G-D NO MORE?

Lubab No More said...

avinoam, thanks for the thoughtful post.
It's ironic that you argue for the existence of god by saying that people are quite good at rationalizing away what they can't explain and creating a house of cards around theories that depend on a series of interlinked assumptions because that is essentially my view on why religion was invented. We seem to be looking at two sides of the same coin.
I am happy to say that I feel a strong sense of purpose in life independent of religion.

LNM

Chana Tov, thanks for the post! I am happy to say that after leaving Chabad I continued in Orthodoxy for many years without worshiping a holy man. While my issues with Chabad have a lot to do with The Rebbeh, my problems with religion (and Judaism) are not based on the issue of holy man worship.

LNM

Lubab No More said...

adey, your arguments defy logic ("kids of BTs learn less... except for when they learn more"), your assumptions are laughable (see: anything about my parents), and you aren't actually interested in any kind of dialogue so I'm bored of arguing with you. It seems you only care about how my blog might affect the way people look at Chabad. I'm flattered that you think my little blog has any influence at all but the fact of the matter is Chabad was a focus of my identity for 2/3rds of my life and, I'm only telling the truth about my time as a Chabadnik. For those reasons I'm not going to change the title of my blog or stop telling my story. If you have an issue with that you are welcome to stop reading my blog.

LNM

---------------------

Note: my earlier comment to adey that he "strike[s] me as the kind of person who would punch a woman in the face over library books" was a reference to the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Gurary#Chabad_library_controversy

Nemo said...

"Chabad was a focus of my identity for 2/3rds of my life"
While you might have lived a significant portion of you life as a Chabadnik, Adey's point still stands that you are a bit strangely obsessive with Lubavitch, which for anyone else would have been moot by this point in their parallel life.

You identify as "Lubob No Longer," which to just about everyone who has read your blog thusfar has been very telling of your rejection of Lubavitch in particular. Using such a protrusive title lends more than ample reason to assume that you are bent on your rejecting Chabad. You expressly state that "I am happy to say that after leaving Chabad I continued in Orthodoxy for many years." And in a more recent post you clarify that you have not identified as Chabad in at least ten of your adult years.

I think then that even you'll have to admit that it's a little ridiculous to still be identifying as Chabad in that you are currently rejecting it {Lubob No Longer}, when you really haven't been part of the faction for many long years Your adult life has been spent outside of the fold. You haven't believed nor shown any interest in it in a long time. You even rejected your youth and adolescent experience in Lubavitch some ten years ago. Yet now, when you bump around and decide to reject your religious conscience entirely after a couple week spring with doubts, suddenly the dilemma which you escaped seven years ago reignites itself enough to make you identify as Lubavitch again.

It's awfully strange to say the least. And it's not something that I or Adey are sensitive to because we're currently Lubavitch, it's something that every reader here remarked on, whether it was the Lakewood guy or Failed Messiah. That's why these random people are assuming that you're rejecting Lubavitch and telling you to try out "real Judaism."

Lubab No More said...

Of course you and Adey are sensitive to my discussions about Lubavitch because you are Lubavitch.

If I read this blog 15 years ago I might have been irked too. I think the reason my blog upsets you and adey so much is the blog highlights the fact that people leave the Lubavitch-Chabad movement and that Chabad wasn't able to keep me frum.

I am very upfront about my connection to Lubavitch and my life after I left the movement. I put it in the banner of my blog ("Life and times of a once Lubavitch frummie, now Orthodox closet atheist") and it is discussed in a number of my posts.

Acknowledging that I was part of the Lubavitch movement for a significant portion of my short life and then trying to characterize my discussion of it as "obsessive" underscores the desperation of your argument. It is incorrect to assume that the moment I stopped following Lubavitch customs I discarded any attachment or identification with Lubavitch. A recurring theme in many skeptic blogs is people continuing to feel a sense of Jewish identity despite a rejection of the religious beliefs. We wouldn't have irreligious Jews if not for this phenomenon. My relationship with Chabad is as I said, "Love/Hate". There is still an undeniable attachment. It is no longer a focus of my identity, but it is still part of it.

Further, my family is still Lubavitch and they are a part of me. My life has always been connected to Chabad and will probably be forever. My friends even see me as a Chabadnik. (I wish I had a dime for every time someone said to me "Hey, didn't you used to be Lubavitch?") There is no such thing as a complete separation. My formative years were spent in Lubavitch and had an undeniable impact. It is foolish to claim I have no Lubavitch identity. Chabad had an impact on me. Just not the one it was supposed to have.

The bottom line is sometimes I am talking about Lubavitch and I am saying things that make you upset.

You aren't arguing the truth of WHAT I am saying, you are upset that I AM SAYING IT and acknowledging that Chabad had something to do with it.

LNM

Lubab No More said...

nemo, I was looking back at what you wrote and you also quoted me out of context. You claim that I stated "I am happy to say that after leaving Chabad I continued in Orthodoxy for many years."

What I actually said was in response to Chana Tov's comment that "Worship of "holy men" began with the early catholic church". My FULL quote was: I am happy to say that after leaving Chabad I continued in Orthodoxy for many years without worshiping a holy man.

If you won't play fair, I'm not going to play.

LNM

Unknown said...

"You identify as "Lubob No Longer," which to just about everyone who has read your blog thusfar has been very telling of your rejection of Lubavitch in particular"

Nemo, I am envious of your talent for words.


Again Lubav No More misses our point,
what we are saying is that we don't have a problem with your selective issues with Chabad and the desire to be outspoken about it, our issues is the fact that you choose this as a banner for you atheistic ideology's, when clearly thats a farce.

Lubab No More said...

adey, as evidenced by your previous comments you DO have a problem with my selective issues with Chabad and my desire to be outspoken about it.

"Lubab No More" is a nickname that accurately describes ME. A close friend of mine had a good laugh when I told it to him because he thought it fits well.

"Lubab No More" is at the top of my blog because it is my username not because it is the title of my blog. If I have a blog title it is "Life and times of a once Lubavitch frummie, now Orthodox closet atheist"

For example see Miri's (great) blog spoonicus19 which has nothing to do with roman history or cutlery. It's just her username.

Get over it.

Nemo said...

Lubab, I didn't say I was angry and I didn't quote you out of context. I've seen a million of your type- the ex-Lubavitchers- and it neither impresses, imposes nor intimidates me anymore. The context was irrelevant; it was just a select quote of many where you stated your dissociation from Chabad ideology.

I was merely pointing out the irony in your title choice. "Obsessive" was my suggestion since you continue to harp on that forgotten part of your life to the extent that you continue to identify by it. It is telling that you use a name like "Lubob No Longer" when the express point of your blog is an ideological rejection of Judaism. It's not just a random blurb, a favorite expression or a catchy line; like I said before, it's very protrusive. It is a stated purpose and identity.

Lubab No More said...

it's very protrusive. It is a stated purpose and identity.

That's your opinion.
The bottom line is if you weren't Lubavitch you wouldn't be writing to me about my choice of username.

Nemo said...

Granted it's my opinion, but it's glaringly obvious. And yes, if I wasn't Lubavitch I probably wouldn't take notice, unless I was some "schmuck" from Lakewood with an agenda ;)

I'm so sorry if all this doesn't fit into what you've termed constructive dialogue. But the bottom line is that if you didn't purposefully have such an ostentatious title, I probably would have ignored your blog entirely, as would the rest of Lubavitch. There's plenty of good Kefirah blogs out there, and with all do respect, your's is quite amateur in comparison. Your only arguments so far are quite weak and easily refuted and you're too cordial to Judaism to be very influential as an Apikores :)

The only thing pulling me to this blog is the Lubab thing you have going for you in the title, and reading through a good majority of the commenters, that's what brought them here to. Some of them came to defend, while others came to rant about how Lubavitch is a bunch of nutters and have nothing to do with Judaism. I've got to hand it to you, you've developed quite a following just by having your name.

mazeartist said...

If you have a problem with Chabad being too messianic, why didn't you try to change it from within? You could have organized a movement to remove the yellow flags from 770.

There are so many stories of former Cbabadniks who become agnostics, atheists, and reformists. Why not remain a non-chasidic Torah-observant Jew?

This is what modern Orthodoxy so appealing- we don't have a king-like rebbe telling us how to live our lives. Our rabbonim are advisors, not authorities.

Cna you prove to your readers what makes you different from Failed Messiah and other former chabad bloggers?

Nemo said...
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Anonymous said...

I can understand this. Imagine you are taught your whole childhood and teenage life Lubavitch and Chabad ideology like it's torah misinai (which face it, they make as if Tanya is Torah Misinai and no other form of Judaism is real, only theirs). Then you find little problems in the system, mainly because they don't make sense or they are bordering on cult religion.
It's very nice to say there are other factions of Judaism, but you start to be wary of any religion because you were brainwashed into thinking one thing, why would you suddenly believe anything else? And they give the same arguments that the former sect gave for their ideals and messed up hashkafos.
it's like going round in circles.
R