The latest attempt to create an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement is underway in Annapolis, Maryland. The conference has got me thinking about Israel and Jewish support for it. In my opinion, religion is the fundamental reason for the hard-right position many Jews take on Israel. I had this debate in the comment section of one of
LittleFoxling's posts. (
Post link :
Comments link) There are other (valid) reasons for supporting Israel but when you get down to it the Torah is the reason for our attachment to the small strip of land, in the hostile neighborhood, located just off the Mediterranean.
But what if you don't believe in the divinity of the Torah? Let's say you're orthoprax. Do you still take a hard-liner approach? Would you support the settlements?
Why would an Orthopraxer blindly support Israel?
Yeah, yeah, I recognize that there are some haredi who support land-for-peace and some atheists who want to "kill all the Arabs" but they are outside the norm for their peer group. What I'm interested in is the norm (if any) for Orthopraxers.
29 comments:
No, the West Bank areas are attractive to me for sentimental, historical, cultural and religious reasons (i.e. not just the Torah), but that is not sufficient in my mind to keep an unwilling Palestinian population forever under occupation. If a true opportunity for peace presented itself, I would be willing to make painful concessions.
However, the real political facts are that the Palestinians don't really want peace and Hamas is just waiting to take over the practically defunct PLO. I don't think giving up land will lead to anything positive at this point. The Annapolis convention is just for show and Bush's hope to go out with something nice on his record.
It's a myth to say that it is a religious/secular divide amongst Jews. When convenient the religious are called Anti Zionist and when not they are made out to be people who want all the land. Those who are religious may use religious arguments for their positions regarding Israel but that's it. If the secular really are not for holding unto land then what is the problem for Israel? The majority of Israelis are not Orthodox. The Orthodox are a big minority but still a minority. And would the United States give up territory that is inhabited by Hispanics who lived in the Southwest before the U.S. conquered it? It's too late. If Israel gives up territory it would be because it desires so and it's borders are being changed from ceasefire lines to permanent ones.
The Torah is only one reason for commitment to Israel. Why are many non-religious American Jews and non-Jews supportive of Israel? Because Zionism is essentially a nationalist/ethnic movement. Its true that without the religion factor, the attachment to each sq cm of eretz yisrael is lost. But we have enough nationalist/historical support for being here.
People naturally identify with and want to be with their own kind, and defend themselves. This is what Zionism is about for the Jews. Then, the right-left argument is practical only, based on political and security considerations.
In my view the national conflict between Israel and the Pals is not reconcilable, there is no solution, and all that we can do is try to manage the situation.
Realistically the West Bank will have to remain in Israel's hands. There's no way to divide it up without joint agreement. So it will have an Arab enclave, so does the Galilee. Gaza by contrast has a chance if we could ever make piece with it. Since Chamas separated itself from the PA it is really a separate issue. But it is being ignored as if Abbas can dictate to it. It remains to be seen how much he can even dictate over the West Bank.
Lubav,
You are absolutely, 110% bang-on with this post. If you don't believe in God i.e. the land of Israel was a divine promise, then support for the creation of Israel in former Palestine is, at best nostalgia run amuck, at worst racist.
Take God out of the equation...one should support a country without the law of return, give back all land deemed unlawful under international law, etc.
Alas, for many Jews, the Holocaust and Israel is, unfortunately, their god (yes, that's a small "g").
I'm half israeli, and a bunch of my family lives in israel. In fact I have a bunch of cousins living in the west bank, and one of my cousins was kicked out of Aza, and now lives in Sredot.
While in terms of sentimental views I love the place itself (I lived there for a summer once and have been there many times), and it's a freakin neat place (i love historical places in general) and I LOVE the secular jews who seem to only really exist en masse in israel, I don't personally agree with the way the israeli government has handled the palistinian situation, and I think there are deep structural inequalities in israeli society (in terms of the israelli/palastinian divide) that need to be addressed.
I also make it a personal policy to never discuss israel with anyone, since everyone gets all up in arms about it and makes totally irrational arguments. Yes it's important to have a place for jews etc etc, but that does not excuse the way many palastinians were stripped of their land and not allowed to work in Israeli held cities, and live in abject poverty. If the UN suddenly declared that my home was now the state for another group, and i had to move to some isolated part that sucked (for whatever reason- and i know many people argue that the palastinians left voluntarily during the war- but that still doesn't mean we had to take their homes when they left. When people evacuated California because of fires, it's not like other people got to go back and take their houses), and me and everyone like me was totally poor and destitute, i probably would be pretty pissed off too.
It's pretty hard to talk about it in a rational way though. I think it helps that I was friend with a palastinian girl in college. her grandfather had owned part of the land that later became the ben gurien airport, and their family has basically nothing (and certianly got nothing from when their land was taken to make an airport on).
"The Torah is only one reason for commitment to Israel. "
Imagine I told you that I loved you. I stated this in letters...in song, proclaimed my love to you in front of our family and friends. Then, one day, you discovered a letter in which I stated, many years ago, that I never loved you, but rather, wanted your money.
How would this affect our relationship? Our children's relationship to us? Would you say: "Feh, love is only one of the reasons I married you."?
Agreeing with Orthoprax, Rabban Gamliel and Dr. J, and adding one more thought: family ties, real and extended.
LNM, have you spent any time there? Israel is not at all like how it's presented in the media. As an artist, there is so much intriguing art. The history goes back thousands of years.
"the way many Palestinians were stripped of their land and not allowed to work in Israeli held cities, and live in abject poverty. If the UN suddenly declared that my home was now the state for another group, and i had to move to some isolated part that sucked (for whatever reason- and i know many people argue that the Palestinians left voluntarily during the war- but that still doesn't mean we had to take their homes when they left. When people evacuated California because of fires, it's not like other people got to go back and take their houses), and me and everyone like me was totally poor and destitute, i probably would be pretty pissed off too."
If there would be no return of these people to their California homes others would come in. There was no Palestinian people when Israel was created. The ones who were called Palestinians were the Jews. It wasn't Palestinian land. There was supposed to be a Jewish Palestine created and an Arab one. In the course of the war there were conquests both ways. No Arab Palestinian state was made unless you count Jordan which now along with other Arab states kept the Palestinians in refugee camps instead of doing what Israel did and absorb its Jewish refugees. No Jews were allowed in what was to be Arab Palestine, by contrast Arabs living in Israel are citizens of Israel. Israel has border disputes over disputed land not Arab entitled land. After the War for Independence it also had more territory but they became majority Jewish through settlement. Are we to say as do some of our enemies that we should go back to the Prewar for Independence borders? Why don't we just give up all Israel while we are at it? The Palestinians have Jordan if only Jordan would give them the majority recognition. Palestinian refugees poured into Jordan making them the majority in a country that never existed before. They even have an unrecognized Gaza government. Not bad for new people consisting of also a considerable amount of immigrants to Palestine as a result of Jews making the land inhabitable.
Oy.
Israel's a mess. People get the government they deserve.
I hope Israel can make peace, because it's embarrassing already. We can do our part by making friends with Arab Americans in this country (instead of being friends with, say, 90% other jewish people).
And I hope the government of Israel can figure out that the Conservative and Reform movements have just as strong a claim on Judaism as Orthodoxy. We have to stop catering to the strictest sect.
For the record. I just want to point out that although I was actually the instigator of the discussion on My blog and took a firmly dovish position, that shouldn’t be confused with lack of support of Israel. I do support Israel, and firmly so. My reasons for doing so are:
1. I support any western democracy in a fight against terrorism
2. it’s an alley of the states
3. my Jewish heritage makes me feel closer to Israel.
But, I don’t see that as being contradictory to being dovish. One can firmly support Israel but still feel that settlements are not helping Israel. While I do support Israel, the specific political path advocated by certain segments of society (the right) irks me.
No, the West Bank areas are attractive to me for sentimental, historical, cultural and religious reasons (i.e. not just the Torah), but that is not sufficient in my mind to keep an unwilling Palestinian population forever under occupation. If a true opportunity for peace presented itself, I would be willing to make painful concessions.
However, the real political facts are that the Palestinians don't really want peace and Hamas is just waiting to take over the practically defunct PLO. I don't think giving up land will lead to anything positive at this point. The Annapolis convention is just for show and Bush's hope to go out with something nice on his record.
Despite our long debate on this matter, I actually agree with 99% of this. I feel the same way about the cultural etc connection to the west bank. I also feel that Palestinian rights are paramount. I also feel that there is no real chance for peace in the current climate. Where I differ from you is that while I feel immediate peace is unlikely, I still feel it is incumbent on us to do all we can to move in that direction which includes:
-not building settlements
-engaging in negotiations as much as possible
-not teaching our children the hate rhetoric you see in much of the right wing schools.
Orthoprax,
> the real political facts are that the Palestinians don't really want peace and Hamas is just waiting to take over the practically defunct PLO.
I agree with you there. Abbas only represents half of the Palestinian territories and Hamas, despite all the problems with them, does have some legitimacy as they were selected by the people. The current situation is a mess.
DrJ,
> Zionism is essentially a nationalist/ethnic movement.
That's a good point. There is the nationalism angle. But again, I think without the Torah the attachment to this particular piece of real-estate is lost.
"But again, I think without the Torah the attachment to this particular piece of real-estate is lost."
Your wrong and your right. Your right and your wrong. People have varying levels of attachment to the Torah and it is enough to make an attachment to the land even if they are not admitting or recognizing why they still feel an atachment to the Jewish people and our land. So tells us Lubab No More do you have an attachment or do you expect us to believe Israel is to you like France?
abandoning eden,
You raise an important point that I didn't bring up in my post; Israelis have a natural connection to the Land. I certainly have a connection to the place through my relatives who live there. I guess once Jews moved back there en masse we created "facts on the ground." But I think that immigration goes back to the religious texts that tell us that it was ours to begin with.
I also like that you brought up the historical angle. Greece and Rome are awesome too but those places aren't the setting for "our history." The historical angle still ties into the religious texts but I didn't previously give it serious consideration.
I agree, people are pretty irrational when discussing Israel which is why I tend to avoid it in real-life.
Leora,
> LNM, have you spent any time there?
I have spent time there. But I was pretty religious at the time. I believed that I was walking on land given to ME by God so to put it mildly, I was pretty psyched. (I even kissed the tarmac at Ben Gurion.) I'm not saying Israel isn't fascinating, it is. But I'm also saying there is an irrational attachment to the place that is based on religion.
benjamin,
> We can do our part by making friends with Arab Americans in this country (instead of being friends with, say, 90% other jewish people).
90%? I think you're being generous. I think I'm pretty open to being friends with anyone and I doubt 10% of my friends are non-Jews.
littlefoxling,
> While I do support Israel, the specific political path advocated by certain segments of society (the right) irks me.
I'm with you on support for Israel. I also support a two-state solution/peace with the Palestinians.
I'm not against Israel. I support it. I just don't view it as a place I'm destined to live, or a place I should want to live. I find it particularly annoying when Jewish people (who aren't working on a plan to make aliyah) say: "Of course I want to live in Israel! But, now just isn't a good time for me." Augh! Talk about B.S. "Now" is never a good time to pick yourself up and move halfway across the world. Conversely, I have the greatest respect for the people who put their money where their mouth is and live what they believe.
As for myself, the U.S. is my homeland. I love it here and I don't ever want to live anywhere else.
"As for myself, the U.S. is my homeland. I love it here and I don't ever want to live anywhere else."
Fine but do you feel a connection to Israel? I'm not against Canada but I don't feel a connection to Canada.
Blind support of Israel is just plain stupid. Just like blind support of anything.
Be critical. Choose who you support carefully. That goes for organizations, as well as governments.
LNM,
>90%? I think you're being generous. I think I'm pretty open to being friends with anyone and I doubt 10% of my friends are non-Jews.
No wonder we can't make peace with the Arabs. Too busy talking with ourselves.
I've got a good mix of Jewish and non-Jewish friends. If you don't, you're missing out.
I believed that I was walking on land given to ME by God so to put it mildly, I was pretty psyched.
Ah, that explains your post. It seems like you're seeking a new attachment to Israel, based on your current view of the universe. Good luck. And I hope Rabban Gamliel will just let you do that, instead of badgering you about whether you feel the same about Israel as about France.
With all due respect, I find it hard to understand why you don't understand the importance of Israel. In my philosophy of life, there is nothing "holy" about the holy land. If anything, it should be called the "unholy land." But that is where history has decided to put the Jewish state, and there is a need for a Jewish state. Why, you ask? For two reasons: to defend the Jews, and to have a state that is governed by Jewish principles, which, in my book, could be good as long as people define "Jewish principles" properly. If you America has a perfect political system with alleged separation of Church and State, you are mistaken. Yes, there should be freedom of speech, but if a country stand for some philosophical/religious principles, it will fall for any. And that is precisely what is happening to America today. The ideological vacuum left by the separate of Church and State has been filled by a sour philosophy called Marxism that is and that has been eroding at every area of American life. So it is NOT ideal to have this separation of Church and State. And it would be the Jewish state that is ideal, for as long as there is freedom of speech. And it is this for which there should be a Jewish state. I say this as someone who do not take Torah literally, and who is not even so much as Orthoprax unless I am in the company of frummies.
"And I hope Rabban Gamliel will just let you do that, instead of badgering you about whether you feel the same about Israel as about France."
I'm just wondering if he feels a special attachment to Israel irrespective of his attachment level to the Torah. I doubt he really could HONESTLY say he feels about Israel no more than France. If he did then he would for sure not be seeking a new attachment to Israel, based on his current view of the universe as we suspect he is.
do you support saving darfur?
israel is at least equal
I just read Chamas controls so much in the West Bank so I see the following dillema. If Abbas would sincerely want peace he would fail against Chamas and if he doesn't want peace everything will collapse in any event. I think there will be a struggle between Chamas and the PA in the West Bank.
I'm actually a recent skeptic and I'm living in Jerusalem, Israel so this becomes an important issue in my life.
I love the 'vibe' of this country even with all the problems but have definitely become more left wing since I became a skeptic. I think the main reason I'm still here is because most of my friends live here and i'm more likely to date Jewish girls (which isn't a problem for me but would make things much easier with my parents).
That hasn't been working recently though most of my romantic interests have not been Jewish and even sometimes Arab which creates difficulties here as you can imagine. So I'm kinda committed to Israel but I have not taken citizenship here yet because of this issue of 'Why?' and whether I can justify or understand a 'Jewish state' without all the surrounding beliefs that I lack. When I moved here I was a religious Zionist so there wasn't really much of a choice to be made. Nowadays when I look at my family I see how much of the Israel illusion continues to form their outlook and day to day lives in Jerusalem. I think however its important for skeptical and more rational people to live here also and create some balance with the traditional majority, so I am staying for the moment and trying to get involved with helping projects like African refugees in Israel and Arab Rights groups.
I like to label myself non-Zionist if anything but I guess I still have a lack of trust any Palestinian 'partners' and an idea that Israel somehow is more morally justified in many of their actions. I guess the fact that my grandparents were all in the holocaust also shapes my views, as I think a state like Israel is required due to antisemitism - but that most anti-semitism in this region comes from religion in the first place and is unlikely to dissipate without a huge change in the role of Islam (and possibly Judaism) in the cultures of the Middle East.
thanks for your blog its a good read....
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