After the Friday night discussion (see last post) we continued to fight on a regular basis. On the plus side I think it was good that at least the religious issue was acknowledged. We fought about a number of different issues. Just about all of our fights were about issues other than religion. (Maybe we fought about how I often get to shul very late on Shabbos but that's about as close as it would get). In reality I think religion (or my lack there of) was the undercurrent of most of our conflicts. When we'd fight we would try to talk through whatever the issue was but we usually didn't get anywhere. To me this was an indication that we needed to take on this underlying religious issue in a serious way.
A friend had suggested trying therapy. It was on my mind. It has been suggested many times on this blog. I ran the idea past the Mrs. She said she "didn't know what a doctor could possibly tell us that would help things." I said "that's exactly why we need to go. We don't know what else to do!"
We did some searching and she found a frum psychologist in our neighborhood. I liked the idea that he was frum because I think we needed someone who understands our "cultural lifestyle". I didn't worry too much about the possibility that he might take sides. If anything I worried that if we went to a non-Jewish or non-frum doc that Mrs. Lubab wouldn't be able hear any suggestion that might seem to support me.
The guy we found is not in our insurance network (boo) and doesn't go to our shul (yay). We showed up for the first session not really sure what to expect.
Continued...
25 comments:
>not in our insurance network
You can often still submit to your insurance company and get some money back.
Did you get permission from Therapydoc to use that title?
It's usually easier to have a therapist who is not from your community. But I find a knowledgeable Jewish therapist helps a lot, because you're not wasting your money explaining your culture/religion.
> You can often still submit to your insurance company and get some money back.
Yes. I called the insurance co and found out what my deductibles are etc. Thanks for the thought.
> Did you get permission from Therapydoc to use that title?
Nope, just making a cute j-blogger insider reference.
DUDE
Can you stop with prolonging this into a series and let us find out what's going on. I'm on the edge of my seat here.
I agree that going to a orthodox therapist certainly makes things much easier since you don't have cultural things to explain.
I was just curious to know if you feel he is giving you a fair shot or if he has biases against you due to your non-religious life choices?
I think the problem with marriage couseling is that each partner wants the other person to change, so no one changes.
Even regular therapy where the person going wants to change himself is hard enough.
Reality Blogging at it's best.
if you feel he is giving you a fair shot or if he has biases against you due to your non-religious life choices?
A good therapist wants you to be comfortable with who you are. Do any of you even read some of TherapyDoc's posts? Sheesh. Here's a good one:
Leave your religion at the door
LNM at least knows of her column because he used her blog name as the title for his post. (I was kidding about asking permission; guess I should have left one of those dorky smiley faces).
Therapists don't spend your time telling you what to do. They listen and ask questions. Then they ask some more questions...you gotta do the work.
Even if a marriage doesn't work out, at least both partners have more insight into why it may not have worked, and hopefully, they may be less likely to repeat the same patterns in the future.
I don't usually agree with the Jewish Philosopher on any topic that i can think of, but having gone through what you are just starting to confront, I have to say that he is right on the money.
The truth is that you aren't going to become a believer and she isn't going to become an atheist. That's not going to change.
I am not saying: divorce now...that's a decision for you & Mrs. to make.
However, it is MUCH, MUCH harder to deal with it after your kids are a bit older, you have accumulated things (house, investments, etc...) and your fights have caused you to hate each other.
Therapy is not about one or the other changing, its about finding ways to accept and accomodate each other.
There are certainly plenty of "mixed marriages" out there (although admittedly they are a minority). I even know a Lubav BT married to a non-Jew.
It can be done, but don't expect quick results. With the beginning of therapy things may actually get worse before they get better. Hang in there.
Religion is sure to be just a part of a larger picture. Don't think in terms of winning. Think in terms of you both winning by staying married. You may be surprised. If you budge, she may assuming you'ld still want her to budge.
P.S. Being late to shul is something I'm guilty of most of the time too.
" DrJ said...
Therapy is not about one or the other changing, its about finding ways to accept and accomodate each other.
There are certainly plenty of "mixed marriages" out there (although admittedly they are a minority). I even know a Lubav BT married to a non-Jew."
It's not simply about religion with them. Therapy in any event is about self discovery. It is seeing honestly what motivates you. If it is not honest, it is doomed and a waste of money.
I hate cliff-hangers.
I am upset by the impatient people cheering from the sidelines for action. Its human, but immature, like gathering to go and watch a trainwreck. LNM is sharing this intimacy, we should not pressure him to be decisive for our blogging pleasure.
Relationships are multifaceted, and take time and patience, to understand and need constant attention.
LNM, your wife is more important than us bloggers, do what you need to do, but be careful, judge for yourselves, and dont give much credence to outsiders (I would even include therapists in this category).
I think it's a very good idea to go to therapy at this juncture. A therapist won't be able to tell you anything you don't already know probably, but just talking about your problems in front of an outside objective neutral party (which usually prevents descents into madness, which fights can become) can be incredibly useful. I've never done couples therapy, but I did go to a therapist for a while on my own to deal with some anxiety issues, and just having an objective opinion was really helpful to me.
That being said, remember that if you start thinking this guy is biased or you don't think he is helpful, you can always try a different therapist. What kind of therapy does this guy do? I recently had some experience with positive psychology (a new type of psychology which builds on the positive things about yourself/your relationship), and I really liked it.
Does your therapist read the blog? :)
I second what Nimrod said, and drj
We did the therapy thing. It didn't work, mostly because my husband didn't really respect the therapist's level of orthodoxy. What worked better was finding a rav that my husband respected that told him the same thing that the therapist said, which were mainly: be nice, appreciate what you have, don't nitpick the little things.
In Chabad, there are many women who provide the same service. You can suggest your wife read/talk to Sarah Karmely. She is always telling women how to deal with their "not-yet frum" husbands.
>LNM is sharing this intimacy, we should not pressure him to be decisive for our blogging pleasure.
Nobody is asking him to be decisive, but its obvious he is meaning to leave us in suspense when he decides to continue it on another post. He could have easily written what happened over that friday in one post.
I agree with drj and rg and others. This is about trying to figure out ways of living with the other person that work for both of you. One way (obviously) is for you to become more religious or her to become less religious. But assuming that does not happen, what ways do you both have of living with and loving the other person, despite these differences? That's the challenge.
For two people who for whatever reason don't like each other to learn to accept each other is a big change. And in marriage counseling it's often a case of each one expecting the other one to change. I think statistically it's seldom successful, but, what the heck, it can't hurt.
onionsoupmix said: You can suggest your wife read/talk to Sarah Karmely. She is always telling women how to deal with their "not-yet frum" husbands.
That's exactly the reason it won't work out with a religious counselor. They treat everyone as "not-yet frum". LNM is on his way out, not in.
The Bruce aboe was not this Bruce.
Bruce Wayne
above
Bruce Wayne
Hand in there LNM. We are with you.
Bruce Wayne
"It didn't work, mostly because my husband didn't really respect the therapist's level of orthodoxy."
This kills most interactions, I think. Most frum problems are caused by a continually moving bar, personal piety, and therefore, an inability to tolerate others. Today, average frum people will not eat at perfectly, impeccably kosher simchas and restaurants, because it somehow does not match their own superior standards, which are meaningful to someone who told them to keep some random chumra, but did not bother with any reason. Some very average frum people will not eat in someone else's house, even if their standards are within the same minhagim. Some small minded people find this insulting, imagine.
OSM's bottom line is the correct prescription. Don;t sweat the small stuff. In truth, people hold on to what is most important to them, they find a way. Even (and especially) the JP's of the world pick and choose what they believe and how strongly or weakly they react, based on what they prefer to believe that the Torah preaches. Find out what your wife's real "red lines" are and strive to do them, not because you believe in them, but because this is comforting to your wife. She should be willing to define these red lines and allow some freedom on the rest. If you find davening and shul uninspiring, why should be there to open the doors in the morning. Many frum people feel this way about their shuls. Read something intellectually satisfying, and explain that your learning consumed you such that you were late, if you feel a need to explain at all.
There are no two people nowadays at the same level of frumkeit, so your marriage is the same as all of them. Yet, people work them out all the time. The fact is that it is the lack of respect for where one is holding, not the "where" itself, is the biggest obstacle. Learn to respect her being frum and what that forces her to think about actions and statements, and teach her to respect (if not accept) that it does not inspire you. Try to avoid being militant or saying things that you know will set off a frum person. Don;t make her choose between who she is and keeping her marriage together, and she will likely do the same for you.
Behind every great idea, there is someone whispering into the former's head that it will never work.
JP, with many years of dedicated study, if you really apply yourself, one day you might elevate yourself to achieve being a moron. But don't hold your breath; it probably a false hope.
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