Why should god need a chosen people? If you argue that god exists, and he wants us to better ourselves, why does it make sense that he would only want some of humanity to achieve a "higher level?" Why not make the revelation available to all people? What purpose does it serve to have only some people following his ultimate plan? And, if you want to argue that the Jewish people are inherently special then why does Judaism allow conversions? Conversions imply that what is really important is adherence to the commandments and not one's lineage. If Judaism is truly the path to the betterment of humanity then why would god relegate it to one nation?
Again, why should god need a chosen people?
52 comments:
He needs a chosen nation to live by example for the other nations. Someone has to follow a paradigm of behavior and teach G-d's will to others.
Non-Jews also have a code that they are meant to live up to- 7 laws. Those seven are the betterment of the world.
Conversions aren't encouraged because the truth is that everyone who has the potential to live as a righteous gentile and follow the laws designated by the Torah for them is living up to their expectation, and more so, their fulfillment of what G-d wants from them. He doesn't expect them to become Jewish and live as Jews, but he does expect them to revere him. A conversion is only for one who feels compelled that they must live as a Jew to fulfill themselves.
I wish there was an emoticon for "Wow! That just flew right over your head!"
"That just flew right over your head!"
Skeptodox,
Shouldn't you be trying debunk the claim, made by religious folks, that skeptics are, by their nature, nasty people?
In other news...
We choose every day. We choose our partners, hobbies, etc. And as a result, other options are not chosen. Or they refused our invitation. Either way, it makes absolute sense to me that God (as a concept, being, etc) revealed Himself to those that were open to God's "nature" as it were. Abraham chose God, God in turn chose Abraham.
This is what happened: The Lord approached the gentile nations one at a time and offered them this brand new thing called THE TORAH. Each of these nations asked what this great book contained, and when told that they could no longer kill, steal, fornicate, and all those other things they loved to do, they rejected HIM. When he approached THE JEWS, they said, naaseh v'nishmah-first they took the GREAT BOOK and then they went on their merry way, killing, stealing, fornicating, and all the rest of the things they enjoyed. For that, THE JEWS are the CHOSEN PEOPLE- Shoot 1st, ask questions later. Oh, Goyishe Kup, why not have your cake and eat it.
The Jews chose G-d so G-d chose them. A minority of people change the world.
The Jews chose G-d so G-d chose them. A minority of people change the world.
We are the chosen people in our own minds only. God didn't pick us or anyone as the chosen people. God did not speak to Moses, Jesus, or Mohammed. God ( if he even exists ) speaks to no one. We all believe whatever we want to believe. People wanna believe in a chosen people thats their option.........Avi
because he WANTS to. period.
Ramchal says it best in Derech Hashem, stating that at first the "covenant" was with Adam Harishon, and he failed. Then it was with all humanity until Noach and they failed. Then it was with Noach's children until Avraham, and they failed. All along, anybody in humanity had the same opportunity that now, Ramchal claims exclusively for the descendants of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov. So to answer your question LNM, it was never supposed to be this way if things were idea, but they're not, so there you have it.
Now, what you really mean to do is scoff at the idea that G-d speaks to anyone, I suspect. So why even ask the question?
And a better question is, with all the "and they failed" stories, why can't those who allegedly replaced us Jews (Muslims and Christians) claim to be the "Chosen", which is what they claim? Answer: Because G-d promised Avraham that his descendants would get the covenant, and they are not his descendants.
So take it for what it's worth, but just the same, there's no point "saying" questions.
>Why not make the revelation available to all people?
Well, lets just work textually. He did reveal to the whole people. But we see after each covenant, that it does not work until it was decided to go through one man, then to his family to build up a nation and through that to spread the word.
The whole point is to have monotheism spread to the world not for everyone to watch for shatnes. I would say then, that the message has been pretty succesful.
>And, if you want to argue that the Jewish people are inherently special then why does Judaism allow conversions?
The choseness comes through the covenant. The lineage of Avraham took it up. The bearers of this covenant are the "special" ones, but at the same time, anyone can join...which is the point. There is no contridiction here. I think you are just pidgeon holing.
So everyone who believes in their version of God can feel superior to those who don't.
What are we as Jews "Chosen" for?
Is it that we have been given the Torah? Well the Torah is available for all to read. What is it that we have as Jews that the non-Jews are choiced out of?
Given the miseries that we as Jews have been alloted, given the persecutions by the Assyrians, Persians, Romans, Spanish, Russians, Germans, and now the Arabs - given the pogroms, inquisitions, purges, and holocausts that we have endured - if I were Abraham and God came to me to tell me that my kids will be "the chosen", I would say, "oy God, thanks but no thanks!"
But you people have got to admit that the jews have ALWAYS seen themselves as SUPERIOR to other people because of their choseness, and some could and have said that this attracts much of the affliction in their history, because every other religion and government wanted to be the Most Superior. This whole notion of chosen as superior also pervades Israeli culture. Admit it.
"But you people have got to admit that the jews have ALWAYS seen themselves as SUPERIOR"
Lubav, mazel tov. You know you've hit the big time when you've got a real anti-Semite as a fan.
"Is it that we have been given the Torah? "
No. That we accepted the Torah. I choose my wife, she choose me (for better and for worse). There's was no giving whatsoever.
"Well the Torah is available for all to read."
Anybody can read sheet music as well. You're a bright guy bad, you know where I'm going with this.
"What is it that we have as Jews that the non-Jews are choiced out of?"
I wasn't there, Abraham was. Our Torah accounts for what/why Abraham heeded the call. Suffice it to say, I think my wife is great. But she wasn't CHOOSEN by everybody. Nor did she CHOOSE everyone. Alas, the Torah models life in many, many ways.
"if I were Abraham"
You wouldn't be Bad. You demonstrate time and again why you would've been one of the many who either couldn't, or wouldn't, hear the call.
"God came to me to tell me"
Again, you wouldn't be open to the relationship. So your example is null and void.
>What are we as Jews "Chosen" for?
Is it that we have been given the Torah? Well the Torah is available for all to read. What is it that we have as Jews that the non-Jews are choiced out of?
How does the fact that non jews can read the torah have anything to do with it? I mean, an INITIAL people had to the be the first recipients of that torah, no? It was not translated into Greek much later. Is there anywhere in the torah that says noone else can read it? The Chosen aspect is to be light to the nations. The choseness comes to whomever wants to be the bearer of that message.
>But you people have got to admit that the jews have ALWAYS seen themselves as SUPERIOR to other people because of their choseness.
No, its basically the gentiles have made animals of themselves to Jews all throughout history. Can you blame them for thinking the gentiles were lowlifes? It has nothing to do with sticking their noses up in the air
LNM, your post echoes my thoughts of late. The funny thing is, religions have become so steeped in the past they are no longer looking at the world of today and trying to figure out what it is that God wants (if he exists). If a person truly believes in God, she should look at the world and ask herself what God wants of humanity today. Why did god set us up as separate nations? (So that we could make peace.) Why did he create a fragile world? (So that we could repair it and protect it.) It amazes me that so many religions have missed the lessons of the modern world.
Even the most brilliant Jewish religious scholars, like R Soleveichik or R Lichtenstein, ultimately compartmentalize their intelligence and use their formidable mental capacity "within" the framework of belief. So they can intellectualize what "chosen" means, but they simply are incapable of asking the question of why it is needed in the first place. At some point, they simply choose "not to go there", the place of ultimate questions of belief.
This is the difference between one one hand, the modern concept of a "scholar" who can ask any question, keep or throw out any theory that doesn't stand up to reality, and on the other hand, the religious "scholar" whose questions and inquiries are boxed in by the dogmas of faith.
This is the same question that I asked in Hebrew school, except I phrased it "Why did God choose only some people to know him," and the answer was "Because there is a theory that we are the chosen people." I was visibly unsatisfied with the answer. However, this question does not disprove the existence of God. It merely challenges the conventional Jewish concept of God. In my concept of God--explained in my book--there is an answer to the question of why not everyone is blessed with knowledge of God. In fact, today I am the only person who truly understands God, for I have only recently published my understanding of God.
Why shouldn't G-d have a chosen people. First all other peoples had other gods so who should have had G-d? a created people by G-d. Second why did G-d make anything? Third the Jews picked G-d. That's choseness.
"Why shouldn't G-d have a chosen people. First all other peoples had other gods so who should have had G-d? a created people by G-d. Second why did G-d make anything? Third the Jews picked G-d. That's choseness"
RG, there is an internal logic to your argument. But, my problem is that it seems to make the Jewish God seem petty, like other gods, with needs, emotions, etc. Makes him seem human. To me it seems that an ancient people with limited understanding of the world would describe god that way. Would you, now, in 2007, describe your god as angry, jealous, loyal, choosing favorites, as a way of describing how God acts in the world? When we recite God's 13 attributes, we conveniently leave out the nasty ones (like transferring sins of parents to their children, etc).
Therefore, to me, the "chosenness" which is part of the faith of ancient Israel is silly and embarrasing and should not be part of our narrative.
Chosen to follow special laws is hardly embaressing. It doesn't mean real favorites. The Bible uses human expressions as we still do. If all the peoles of the earth would have chosen G-d they all would have been chosen. "To me it seems that an ancient people with limited understanding of the world would describe god that way."
And what are we? Whatever religion we would make would be designed with needs fufilled for the people at the period/periods they exist. This is indeed what we see with Judaism. Antisemites were the ones who defined choseness as meaning superiority as if racism were a part of Judaism. Choseness is chosen for something.
God doesn't need a chosen people. However God does have very high standards of loyalty and obedience. Only a few people meet those standards. Even among Jews, only a minority make the cut. Where are the Ten Tribes, for example? A Jew who no longer believes in and/or keeps the Torah is not considered to be a Jew.
On the other hand, among non-Jews, a few are good enough - for example Ruth and Onkelos.
Avrum 68: calling someone an anti-semite in a civilized discussion is a gratuitious, mindless way to try to shut them up when they make a good point that really requires discussion. lubab no more: is this really the kind of blog you want to run? calling a commenter an anti-semite because of a sincere opinion is like shouting "nigger." That degrades this to not at all a civilized intellectual discussion. It deteriorates into namecalling that has no place on decent blogs. What's your policy on insulting rhetoric like that, lubab. Gotta know if I'm gonna stay for more, as I know for a fact I'm no anti-semite and avrum 68 is a moron.
There are several different threads in Jewish tradition on the question of what it means to be "chosen." The most prominent is simply that the other peoples weren't ready or willing to hear God's message directly and therefore God gave the Jews the mission to be a "light unto the nations."
When people were misbehaving the first time around, God hit the resent button with Noah for Earth 2.0. When that was shown to be ineffective, God divided the people up (Babel) for the sake of redundancy - like building a firewall between data compartments. Then one compartment (Abraham/Jews) was found to be open to some significant administrative influence, and it was there that God input a program for it to execute with the goal of it spreading change throughout the system. The other compartments were just too corrupted for useful direct interaction.
I like what "Jewish philosopher" has to say.
The Jews are a chosen people. They were chosen by God. But it isn't black and white where you have one people that is chosen and another people that is not chosen. Some people are more chosen than others. For example, Europeans became MORE chosen after they converted to the more civilized Christian faith.
Why are there chosen people? Why doesn't God just choose everyone? Because, to make the answer very brief, God has limited resources at His disposal. For the full answer, you would have to read my book.
>God has limited resources at His disposal.
Wow, I may have to read the book just to understand this one sentence!
None of you has spoken directly to God. All of you are making up nonsense based on what you construe as logic and alleged historical fact. This is such an futile exercise in conjecture it boggles the mind. I wonder if even lubab is a genuine skeptic or if this whole blog is just a sham to convert people while either shunning by completely ignoring or calling an "anti-semite" (totally pathetic) anyone who disagrees too vehamently. I came here thinking there would be interesting discussion. Where is it?
I disagree. I have spoken directly to God. It's not what you think. You don't have to be psychotic to speak to God, and I have certainly done so. In fact, the whole format of my book is that it is a conversation between God and me.
By the way, Mr. Skeptic. The burden of proof is on you, too.
>You don't have to be psychotic to speak to God, and I have certainly done so.
No, but if it's the other way around... :)
Yes, people talk to walls too. Not just Wailing ones. I just think, for the sake of belief, everyone who wanted to hear a couple of words directly from God, for reassurance, should have that gift. Without that, how can one not be either a skeptic/atheist or deluded in denial and wishful thinking?
"However God does have very high standards of loyalty and obedience. Only a few people meet those standards. Even among Jews, only a minority make the cut. Where are the Ten Tribes, for example? A Jew who no longer believes in and/or keeps the Torah is not considered to be a Jew."
OK, JP, as usual, you are restating some classic Jewish beliefs (among many). Since this forum is a discussion to encourage thought, persuasion and reason, rather than just parroting what the rabbis say, try to convince us:
1. What evidence is there that the world works this way?
2. Is it "good" and why?
3. Why would one choose to believe these assertions (other than because the rabbis and/or texts say them) instead of many other competing ideas/beliefs?
If all you answer "because the Torah says so", then you are suspending your own reasoning, and that's not very convincing. Of course, that doesn't mean you're wrong, but its pretty meaningless to many of us reading this blog.
The individual voice
Lubab asked a question that is presented in jewish thought.
People are answering him.
What is the problem here?
The Question "Why does God need a chosen people?" assumes that there is a God who made that choice. My impression was that Lubab was questioning the existence of that God. In that case, the question becomes why do Jewish people need to believe that their God needs a chosen people. I was sincere in responding that I thought the Jewish people, like most other religious groups, seems to have a need to feel superior to other religions and thus they decided they were chosen. I was then accused of anti-semitism, which is a joke, as I have been grappling with questions of God my whole live as the daughter of two orthodox Aushwitz survivors. I don't understand the dialogue here. It's like you are all speaking a language I don't understand, but I would like to understand, as these issues are not being addressed elsewhere in the blogosphere or my life and interest me greatly. If this is just a closed group, say so and I'll just unlink Lubab and find another forum.
The Individual Voice said:
"the jews have ALWAYS seen themselves as SUPERIOR to other people"
If that observation/scorn isn't the 1st sentence on every 3rd post on Stormfront, I don't know what is.
"because of their choseness, and some could and have said that this attracts much of the affliction in their history"
Ah, the good ol' "their beliefs caused their Holocaust" arguement. Another Stormfront fave.
"This whole notion of chosen as superior also pervades Israeli culture. Admit it."
My Individual Voice, if it ain't THE JEWS it's THE ZIONISTS.
You've got issues IV, and it the won't be fixed with on a blog.
"You've got issues IV, and it the won't be fixed with on a blog"
Yikes, my grade 4 english teacher is rolling over in her grave.
We all have issues. I was hoping for a civilized discussion, not dealing with black and white thinkers to whom the world is either a an ultra-orthodox fanatic or a Nazi anti-semite. I've been around your knee-jerk, hate-filled kind Avrum. I'm done with this blog. Mr. Lubab, you know where to find me if you want actual sincere discourse. It certainly isn't available here. Please take me off your links list. I'd greatly appreciate it. I consider my treatment on your site pure harassment.
"I was sincere in responding that I thought the Jewish people, like most other religious groups, seems to have a need to feel superior to other religions and thus they decided they were chosen."
This is false speculation.
"I was hoping for a civilized discussion"
Really? Instead of hoping, you might want to refrain from ugly generalizations and accusations about Jews. That might be a good first step to encouraging civilized discussion.
Individual voice as one child of a Holocaust victim to another, I think you displayed sentiments not in sensitivity to your background.
The individual Voice;
Lighten up! Avrum is a psychologist, and all blog enterrants seem to be on his couch. HI comments are usually not directed at what you are saying but rather at what brought you to saying them. I do not really take them that seriously, and neither should you.
Blogs are fora for discourse; some are intellectual and some not so. He called you an anti-semite, you called him a Moron. Let's now get on with it.
Individual voice
I am not calling you an anti semite. I would love to hear any questions you might have. I did respond to your charge that Jews think themselves as superior. I will also share with you a rabbi that agrees with you:
"The entire world hates us. We assume that this
hatred is due to the wickedness of the nations, and no one stops to think that we also bear some guilt. We regard all the nations as similar to an ass. It is forbidden to save a Gentile, it is forbidden to offer him free medical treatment, it is forbidden to violate the Sabbath to save his life, his sexual intercourse does not render a woman forbidden to her husband according to R. Tam because their issue is like that of horses.
Can the nations resign themselves to such a deprivation of rights? It is permitted to deceive a Gentile and cancel his debt as well as forbidden to return his lost object! What can we do? Can we uproot our Torah teaching with apologetic formulae or clever deceptions. God knows that I have written this with the blood of my heart, the blood of my soul."
That was from Yehiel Weinberg
But again, I really think you need to see this through the prism of history as to why Jews considered gentiles low-lives.
Also the Rabbi had a certain PreHolocaust naivete I suspect. If what I read on the internet is not some junk from a couch potato (I can't remember the source in other words) he also did not take Hitler seriously thinking he did not really mean business.
No he did not think Hitler would do what he did.
I have just got caught up on the discussion. I think its great that people are really discussing the issue. However...
Avram68, if a discussion about the failability of Judaism causes you to play the victim card ('you're an anit-semite that's why you say mean things!') then you're in the wrong place. I'm glad to see that people called you on your bullshit right away. (And don't whine that you were called a 'moron'. You and I both know there is a difference.)
IV,
It sucks that people are acting like asses on the blog but (unfortunatly) that's par for the course. If you feel you need to pull your link then you gotta do what you gotta do. I hope you stick around and keep asking the questions some people are unwilling ask.
Hey Lubav...
Like every other anon skeptic Jewish blogger, you invite whatever you get. Thank God XGH, whoever s/he is, is going to take the 1st courageous step and end the cowardly anonymous posting.
The fact that you'd defend a poster who holds views such as this:
"the jews have ALWAYS seen themselves as SUPERIOR to other people"
is quite disturbing. Disturbing and wrong. Alas, why let the facts get in the way of a skeptic love-in.
Individual voice, if your voice can still be heard, people don't talk to walls because walls can't talk. But people can talk to God.
If one considers the world in which we live, the world at large, as well as the small world, namely man, it becomes evident that there is no uniformity, but many differences, both external as well as internal. Moreover, everything and every person has its own purpose or task, and this does not make anyone any more or less important, for all are important in the totality of things, just as every limb or organ of a body is important. Indeed if one member would wish to change his function, it would not only disturb his own personal harmony, but would also disturb the total harmony. Imagine, for a moment, what would happen if the brain would wish to do the work of the heart to pump blood; it certianly would be disastrous, for even an extra tiny drop of blood in the brain would be dangerous, whereas the heart must always have an ample supply of blood. Similarly, if the heart would wish to do the work of the digestive organs, where even a tiny speck of food would be dangerous in the heart, and so on.
The same is true in regard to the Torah and Mitzvos, as well as in regard to the destiny of the Jewish people and its place in the family of nations. For reasons best known to G-d Himself , He wished that there should be many nations in the world, but only one Jewish people, a people who should be separated and different from all the other nations, with a destiny and function of its own.
The Jew has one task to fulfil while the gentile has another. Therefore Judaisim discourages conversions, as there is no need to exchange ones own purpose in life for anothers, just like there is no point for the heart to desire to fulfil the function of the brain.
If so, why do we accept converts? Kabala explains that they are born with a spark of Jewishness inside; their task in life is to start out as a gentile but to later convert to Judaism.
On another note, I eat at a kosher eatery, called the "Chosen" in Great Neck. As Chinese food goes, it is not that good, actually, and its prices are rather steep.
Par for the course, I guess.
After thousands of years being murdered, tortured, persecuted and abused in every way imaginable I kinda wish another group of people was chosen.
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