I think I need to do more than just talk to friends, Rabbis and read more sefarim/books. Recently, I read an A.V. Club interview with author A. J. Jacobs. Jacobs is promoting his new book "A Year of Living Biblically" in which he chronicles his attempt to live his life according to the Bible for one year. I found A.J.'s following quote interesting:
Praying was interesting, because I'd never done it before. The only time I'd ever said the word "lord" was when it was followed by "of the rings." I was really trying to commit to this and not just do it as a lark, so I was praying every day. After a while, if you're committed, you start to believe in the things in which you're praying. It's just cognitive dissonance. You can't live a completely religious life and not start to have it sink in.I think that you can (artificially) create meaning in something by committing to doing it. I don't want to but I am going to start putting some real effort in being Orthoprax. I'm going to break out the tephillin, try to daven three times a day, I'll even bust out my old yellowed tzitzit. I feel like I'm agreeing to brainwash myself. Maybe this is what people felt when they were forced to walk the plank. I dunno. At this moment my marriage is more important to me for me not to try committing.
50 comments:
Jacob's book is a cheesy publicity stunt to sell books. The guy walked around in a robe, carrying a stick and dragging a lamb around NYC to make his biblical experience more authentic... Some people don't have a clue!
(Or maybe they just don't have Rashi)
You haven't been doing anything towards assuring your wife yet beyond claiming you would reconsider things which you consistently showed wasn't what you have been doing. You're not good at understanding yourself. I would suggest therapy.
But you wouldn't since you love your wife so much. Well then get serious and think outside the boxes you put up for yourself. Basically you seem to me to be someone who wants a good time unless you would be zapped by G-d. But you're not a kid anymore. Maybe you miss those days. You like being married but you miss your single days too.
Get your wife a copy of Kugel's "How to Read the Bible".
RG,
And to think I was just starting to like you again... :(
Nemo,
Jacobs has said the impetus for the book was to show the absurdity of taking the Bible literally. His target was fundamentalists, a category Jews don't fit into very well.
You do have a problem my friend. But I believe that it can be worked out somehow. Maybe go talk to a marriage counsler or possibly try couples therapy. ( Did you ever think of going to the Ohel ? Avi
I thought the Jacobs book was very entertaining. Which is what I think the main point of the book was.
I also think that it was well written, in the way that journalist types can write. It's not Faulkner or Dickens, but it flows well and keeps your interest.
I don't think the guy ever set out to write a serious philosophical treatise, but I think that while it is, self-admittedly, gimmicky, it did provide him and perhaps some of his readers some topics for contemplation.
RG,
"I would suggest therapy."
Physician, heal thyself!
"Lubab No More said...
RG,
And to think I was just starting to like you again... :("
Lubab No More
I'm trying to help. Do you want me to tell you what you want to hear? :-) Ok you've been on a grand search for the truth. You promised your wife you would reconsider and really tried hard. You will now practice Judaism faithfully and your mind will for sure follow despite your calling it brainwashing before you even started. There I am a true friend. I told you what you want to hear. Why don't I feel better for it? By the way did you read the email I sent you like a month ago?
"RG,
"I would suggest therapy."
Physician, heal thyself!"
It wasn't an insult. He's trying to save his marriage.
>It wasn't an insult. He's trying to save his marriage.
Well, based on your comment immediately after, it didn't sound like you were trying to be helpful.
Lubab, your problems are over. Read my blog, and you will be absolutely convinced.
"e-kvetcher said...
>It wasn't an insult. He's trying to save his marriage.
Well, based on your comment immediately after, it didn't sound like you were trying to be helpful."
Well then you're not as good a reader as I thought.
Here's what i said immediately afterwards. Where's the insult?
"Rabban Gamliel said...
But you wouldn't since you love your wife so much. Well then get serious and think outside the boxes you put up for yourself. Basically you seem to me to be someone who wants a good time unless you would be zapped by G-d. But you're not a kid anymore. Maybe you miss those days. You like being married but you miss your single days too."
It must be incredibly difficult to shift your behaviors so radically in synch with radically shifting beliefs within a marriage in which the contract was based on you both believing the same things. It's like a breech of contract, though through no fault of your own. It's like, to go back to my previous comment's analogy, realizing you are gay and either pretending you are not or totally changing every aspect of your relationship.
You can always just turn your wife into a kofer. (*Not recommended!*)
Skeptodox,
> You can always just turn your wife into a kofer.
That ain't gonna happen. She's not like that.
(BTW, I just noticed you're not on my blogroll. I'm going to correct that ASAP.)
RG,
I didn't say you insulted LNM, you did. How ever, I don't think your armchair psychoanalysis of his situation is very profound, nor, I'm betting, very accurate. As far as I know you're not a therapist.
I really felt that you trivialized this complex dilemma. And, frankly, if it were me you were addressing, I would be insulted by your words.
"e-kvetcher said...
RG,
I didn't say you insulted LNM, you did. How ever, I don't think your armchair psychoanalysis of his situation is very profound, nor, I'm betting, very accurate. As far as I know you're not a therapist.
I really felt that you trivialized this complex dilemma. And, frankly, if it were me you were addressing, I would be insulted by your words."
Well what do you think is happening?
Again here is what I said:"Rabban Gamliel said...
You haven't been doing anything towards assuring your wife yet beyond claiming you would reconsider things which you consistently showed wasn't what you have been doing. You're not good at understanding yourself. I would suggest therapy.
November 13, 2007 1:30 PM
Rabban Gamliel said...
But you wouldn't since you love your wife so much. Well then get serious and think outside the boxes you put up for yourself. Basically you seem to me to be someone who wants a good time unless you would be zapped by G-d. But you're not a kid anymore. Maybe you miss those days. You like being married but you miss your single days too."
The maybe part wasn't anything more than a maybe. The pleasure part he made clear from his Kohelet Post. He clearly has not been exploring any road of reexploration of his ideas despite telling himself and his wife that he would.
While you all bicker about semantics I will congratulate you for taking a step in the right direction. It's the right thing to do and I hope it brings you a measure of peace in your life.
I think is shows common sense and decency to respond to your wife's wishes. Reality is you have changed and that was not part of the original bargain when you were married. She wanted a lubab not a sheigetz. Obviously you cannot change back, there is but you can make attempts to play down overt transgressions as a kindness to her.
I always stutter when i say kiddush over the 6 days part, but i take it like a man :>. You can find other outlets for your newly found freedom and reason with patience and time.
"Skeptodox,
> You can always just turn your wife into a kofer.
That ain't gonna happen. She's not like that."
You don't want to go there Lubab. She turns kofer and she'll dump you for someone cuter. ;-)
Mitoch shelo lishmo bo lishmo.
After a hiatus from M.O. including a 5 year trip to deepest darkest Alabama and marriage to a red-headed catholic girl who always had trouble with the concept of Jews going to hell, and wanted to pray to G-d directly not Mary or Jesus.
At her insistence she converted and has become orthodox taking me along for the ride. First converted reform and then orthodox our kids are in day school and hebrew high school.
We had some problems along the way but I look forward to shutting down for shabbat and to learning and to all the things I hated as an MO kid.
Who knows. Try it you might like it!
"Try it you might like it!"
Ok so maybe he can avoid therapy. But therapists will be none too happy.
"As far as I know you're not a therapist."
I am. And I can tell you that religious differences rank high, high up there vis-a-vis poor prognosis.
The good news? There's an incredible book by Dr. David Schnarch entitled Passionate Marriage. The 1st 3-4 chapters are worth the price of the book (and a few months of couple's therapy to boot). Though it deals with sexual issues (because inevitably, most couples end up in therapy due to unsatisfied sex lives), Schnarch understands them to be SYMPTOMS of larger emotional issues...mostly dealing with anxiety and not being TRUE to yourself.
My colleagues and I have read, practiced and recommended the book to clients.
Good luck.
I, too, am a therapist and completely agree with anonymous. There is no way to skirt around and avoid the painful consequences of your change in such a core belief and you will have to find a way to work this out with your wife or not with professional help. Self-brainwashing is a very sad solution.
is your wife a meshichisa?
I have an amazing talent for pointing out the obvious, but 1) are you planning on keeping this up your entire life? 2) are you okay with the person you love the most in the world not knowing the most fundamental truth about you?
The honest truth, Lubab, is that you probably have to develop an exit strategy from this relationship. You have to start thinking about the child support and custody issues. This looks impressive.
WebGirl,
My wife knows what I think. I've been upfront with her about that. I'm not pretending to believe. I am practicing because it is important to her and (as I mentioned in the post) it may help me find/create meaning in the mitzvos.
JP,
I know your life has been series of abandoned relationships but I have no intention of actively pursuing a separation from my wife. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Having a prior solid relationship is the key. If there is a good basis, it will survive the religious crisis. Otherwise religion becomes an excuse and a weapon.
Lubab,
I know exactly where you're coming from and I've been doing something similar. I don't expect to become a believer, but by practicing like you mean we may be able to make it really meaningful even without believing it. At least that's the hope...
Mikeskeptic
"I have no intention of actively pursuing a separation from my wife."
As it seems to be dawning on you, Lub, that's not just up to you.
Didn't I tell you a while ago that this wasn't going to work out? Sorry to say this, but maybe your elders know a little more than you do.
No one can predict whether or not his marriage will or won't work out, except, if you believe in God, maybe God.
The problem is that you are not the same person she married. She married a frum man and you are a self absorbed baal taaveh KOFER! A rachmanos on all of you. I guess it'll be worth it when you can write in you little blog and sip a brew in front of the TV without anybody to bother you. If you were my wife you'd be OUT THE DOOR! You sir need to GROW THE HELL UP! It's NOT all about you and your little crisis. You gotta kid, now you gotta be a man!
the individual:
G-d knows whether he believes it or not.
SDR,
> you are a self absorbed baal taaveh KOFER!
LOL!
But let's say for a moment I'm not laughing at your hysterics, what exactly are you suggesting?
(Try to keep in mind that I don't believe in god and Torah. I'm not having a crisis of faith. I actually don't believe.)
"Jacobs has said the impetus for the book was to show the absurdity of taking the Bible literally. His target was fundamentalists, a category Jews don't fit into very well."
Can't comment specifically on the book because I haven't, nor have I the slightest interest to, read it. But, I'm not sure who the guy is mimicking when he talks about fundamentalists, because Christian right-wingers don't follow very well into the category either. All (contemporary/non Sadducee) religions understand the confounding biblical rules to require some sort of interpretation. It seems that Jacob's fundamentalism is that of his own and that he's thereby writing his own interpretation and not, in reality, taking the bible literally.
"I actually don't believe."
Which is why realistically this marriage is over.
I'm suprised no one here has come down on the man's wife for being selfish. Marriage is a two-way street. It's clear that LNM has tried to respect her wishes... he's talked to rabbis, and he's even willing to be Orthoprax (no small thing). What has she done to address his concerns? It ain't like she's reading Friedman's book on who wrote the Bible.
LNM, never accept the notion that this is your fault or your problem. Religious leaders are to blame... they have failed our generation.
I second the idea of consulting a professional therapist and possibly a good MO rabbi as a couple. Get it out of your systems for one hour each week, compromise, and enjoy the rest of the week.
"I'm suprised no one here has come down on the man's wife for being selfish. Marriage is a two-way street. It's clear that LNM has tried to respect her wishes."
I don't think he's done much in the way of trying so there hasn't been much progress and also you don't know how their conversations went. He's proposed to reconsider his religious philosophy not her and neither of them is obligated to. But marriage counseling sounds good or at least therapy.
jewish philospher:
Are you sure youre still Jewish?
Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein doesnt think so.
For what it's worth, I'll add my voice to those who believe it is possible to preserve a marriage between a believer and a non-believer. When I came out as a non-believer, various people tried to make me afraid that my family would fall apart. They tried to scare and guilt me into... what? Believing again?
"The honest truth, Lubab, is that you probably have to develop an exit strategy from this relationship. V'Chulu"
JP, many liberal kumquats want to save relationships, especially so children can have intact families and all of that PC crap, but we hand it to you. You are out there making sure the religion is clar un richt (durm un shtrang), and that is what your god wants. As the unlamented Bob Grant used to say, "A triple-A sickola."
Perhaps you should join those of us who have to clean up the messes you sick phony zealots make when your racial purity crap destroys yet more people. You are just as happy to let the kids rot when they go OTD or worse. Oh yeah, I guess you forgot that you believe that children should die if they are destined to grow up to be "evil" as you explained at length to ben avuyah.
LNM, he aint the creepy guy in back of the shul. He is the guy goosestepping around Brooklyn, begging anyone who will listen to hear that the end is nigh and only the righteous will survive the wrath of gawwwwwd.
LNM,
Don't feed the trolls.
Ichabod Chrain
Lubab No More Benjamin said "I'm suprised no one here has come down on the man's wife for being selfish."
Why did I have to defend your wife? Don't you want to exonerate her or would you have done it?
Good news, if you live in NYC at least... Your man Jacobs is going to speak about religion being a positive or negative force in America, along with Alan Colmes and the honorable Rabbi Shmuley. Maybe I'll see you there...
http://www.jewishvaluesnetwork.org/
"JP, many liberal kumquats want to save relationships"
It depends when. Many doctors want to save limbs, but still amputate when necessary.
Wow, some of your commentors have gotten feisty. Yeah, honestly, it can work out. Just like anything else. My husband has been married to a chozeret-b'sheilah for about five years now. It's not bad. Could be worse. We should start a support group. Maybe we could call it Goyim R Us.
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