Over the first days of this past Sukkos I began violating Yom Tov/Shabbos in private. While watching the baseball playoffs during the last days of Sukkos I was talking to a good friend and fellow skeptic about the experience of crossing over this line. He also grew up orthodox and has been non-observant for some time. He thought that my ease with transgression was unusually fast. As I mentioned in the post, I didn't feel any guilt about the violation and I seemed to make the transition from keeping halacha to not keeping halacha fairly easily. I get the impression from other blogs that this isn't the case for everyone.
I (of course) have a theory about this. I think my current separation from halacha has parallels to my separation from Lubavitch. There were a number of practices that I followed as a Chabadnik that I dropped over the years. I stopped wearing Rabbenu Tam's tephillin, I began eating non-Cholov Yisroel , I shaved off my ZZ Top-like beard to name a few. These practices were treated like halacha even if they weren't actually required. I slowly stopped keeping them over the years and was never struck by lightning.
When I stopped believing in Chabad's approach to Judaism I found it was easier to stop believing in other aspects of Judaism. I think having stopped following certain Lubavitch rituals made it easier to stop following many Jewish rituals.
Did you find it easy or difficult to stop keeping halacha, or do you still keep it?
45 comments:
The first time is hard. Then it is easier, but I still feel guilty, even with the little things.
LNM,
How do you plan on remaining in your "orthodox" community, whatever the flavor? Are you going to be orthoprax?
Personally I found to many advantages and much comfort in remaining in my community so I chose orthopraxy.
I can still remember the first time I ordered a non-kosher chicken sandwich at the deli near my office about 9 years ago. Since then I have eat non-kosher on a regular basis. however, I still don't eat cheeseburgers, ham or seafood. I guess somethings just get ingrained over time. Also, when around non-Jewish co-workers who "know i keep kosher" i have become more lax like ordering fish at a completely trief restaurant. I figure they don't know the rules so I can get away with that and just not order meat.
I stopped wearing tzitzit several years ago, although i was never one to wear them every day. I began to skip days of wearing teffilin when i was running late for work. that evolved over a year to the point where i am now, which is to very rarely wear them.
breaking shabbat started as just a light here and there, but now if i am home alone, i'll go online.
i still go to minyan 3x most weeks on shabbat, but that is more as a way to kill the day and see friends.
LNM,
One of my favorite signs was one I used to pass on the West Side Highway, over a Yoga Studio: "One Truth, Many Paths."
Giving up Lubavitch chasidus, as you pointed out, is not giving up Halacha. There are many ways to skin a cat and there are many paths to Truth. Just because you feel that Chabad is bogus is not a good reason to chuck everything else. There's a huge difference between not being strict with cholov Yisroel and flipping on a light on Shabbos. I know that you know all this.
You are someone's father. Are you planning on raising your kid as someone who is Shomer Shab, someone who is traditional but not observant, or as an atheist? Or some combination of the three?
Do you want to come back to belief and religion or are you resolved that there is no truth to Yiddishkeit? Your approach and goals are everything.
Not trying to be mekarev you, believe me. I'm not a kiruv person and I don't think being frum is for everyone. But you have a family and there is so much at stake here.
I went OTD in my twenties. It was pretty lonely. My non-Jewish friends didn't understand me.
Now I am married with kids and back in the MO community. I prefer to think of myself as using Judaism as a way to search for meaning.
I agree with WebGirl; once you have a family, you need to think about your kid(s). Consistency is important to a kid. But learning along with your kids can be a lot of fun.
DrJ, WebGirl, and Leora,
You've all hit upon a very important point: how do I raise a family if I don't believe in orthodoxy? If I were single I wouldn't be frum at all. I would have stopped participating the religious aspects of Judaism. Being married makes the situation more complicated. Mainly I am concerned about my wife's feelings and I want to respect her wishes about raising the baby, for the most part. That said, I will not knowingly live a lie. Everyone lies sometimes and we are all hypocritical at some point or another. However, it is too much for me to knowingly carry on as if I am not aware of what I believe. I also feel it's immoral to teach my kid things I don't believe in. I'm trying to figure out how to navigate these waters. It ain't easy.
I am unable to relate to how you could leave Judaism to the extent that you did just because you stopped believing in Lubavitch.
People are not Lubavitch for the same reason they are Jewish.
What you should do is not lie but have your children raised according to how you and your wife agree. One thing you should also have in mind. In the future you may well change your mind about many things with religion. If your children are frum you have nothing to lose. If your children are not and you return to religion it may break your heart that you didn't pass it on to your kids. Your going to have enough regrets as a father without adding to them.
RG,
I raise my Lubavitch experience because it is similar even if, as you pointed out, it isn't the same. It's like riding a bike without training wheels. The process is similar enough that you know what to expect. I've found moving away from Lubavitch very similar to moving away from Judaism.
Regarding raising kids, I'm not feeling your semi-update to Pascal's Wager. Being frum because the kids might one day not be frum and I might one day return to faith and I might one day regret such a situation is hardly a reason to live my life against my beliefs. Considering the beliefs of my wife, and her parents, and my parents, there is a pretty good chance my kids will be frum no matter what I do. I want to teach my children to live their life according to their beliefs, not follow the herd because, possibly, maybe...
Reminder All: Abusive comments will be deleted.
It's sad I have to repeat this every other day.
It is hard to know someone from a blog. But it is fascinating to watch someone in a transformation and I am not sure if I am watching a metamorphosis or a meltdown. From reading your blog I find it hard to believe that you were ever really into this Judaism thing. . It was more something your parents choices foisted on you. If I had to hazard a guess I would say you studied at Ocean Parkway, never went on Shlichus as a Yeshivah student, and did not go for smicha. You have not gone to Torah shiurim on a regular basis since before you were married. In other words you have been going through the motions of someone practicing Lubavitch orthodoxy for most of your adult life but never really been into it. AM I wrong? If I am wrong, please tell us of some of your high points in your spiritual and intellectual life as an observant Jew before you discovered you did not believe. What was meaningful to you? I don't get the feeling that anything was. Please fill us in. Thanks!
Anon,
There is no need to guess about my current and past religious practices. I'm pretty upfront in my posts about my lack thereof. As for identifying specific institutions I go out of my way to keep my identity anonymous so I won't confirm or deny any specifics.
I currently don't feel any great spiritual connection to religious practice so you may get the impression I didn't in the past because I write from my current perspective. I also don't romanticize my religious practice in the past so you won't find me waxing poetically about it. (Could be an interesting post though... Hmmm.)
I used to get allot out of shlichus. I really enjoyed helping other Jews do mitzvahs. I also used to find meaning in saying tehillim. I gave my all on Yom Kippur and would feel spent at the end. Lighting the Chanukah menorah, wearing tzitzit, and keeping kosher. I got something out of these and more. I really enjoyed it but I was also searching for truth. I wanted to find the proof that supported my emotion. Intellectually, things began to break down when while learning. I started questioning chazal's sources. I wanted people to explain messora's formula to me. After I scared away a couple chavrusha's I stopped asking those questions. From a learning standpoint that was the beginning of the end.
But all this is beside the point. The existence of God and the Truth of the Torah are independent of my personal feelings. Either they are true, or they are not. Just ask Baal Habos or littlefoxling.
Anon, why do you believe in God and Torah MiSiani?
I have to say the what gets my spiritual thing going is watching
an Israeli Etheopean soldier with his uzi srapped to his back and his head buried in the crevices of the Kotel. Jimi Hendrix "Along The Watchtower" is a close second
You asked "Anon, why do you believe in God and Torah MiSiani"
I would have to think about WHY I believe.
You however seem to have spent time thinking about why you believe.
You had mentioned you believe racism is wrong and you believe in the golden rule can you define those beliefs and tell us why you believe them to be true?
Or as asked you in a few posts back. Why is racism wrong? If you believe that 10-30 years of lubavitcher messianism dooms Lubavitch why does 100 years of fatherless households not doom the black man in America? Why does the education in Prison that 1/3 of Black men get in Prison not doom them?
Why do you believe in the golden rule? Why not take whatever you can. Survival of the fittist. Look at nature everything consumes everything else. Do you apply the golden rule to animals? (do you do unto them as you would have them do unto you)
Do you eat meat in your cholent?How about to vegetative life? If not why do you have this residue from your Bible about sanctity of Human life. Life is accident enjoy it while you can!
Joseph,
I explained that racism is wrong because all humans are essentially genetically the same. I believe in the golden rule because it works. Not because of any magical power.
I never said Lubavitch is doomed. I said that messianism has robbed it of the creativity and excitement it once had. I'm not sure what you are driving at with you comments about African-Americans. But it sounds like you are trying to compare a culture (Lubavitch) to a race of people (Black). An apples to oranges comparison.
The golden rule doesn't apply to animals. As I understand it, the golden rule is a tool which helps human beings live at peace with one another. It is not some mystical force that gives power to those who observe it. It's just a standard that can be applied to all people and when followed can produce some great results.
"As I understand it, the golden rule is a tool which helps human beings live at peace with one another."
Peace! That's exactly why we need religion!
And by the way, in the spirit of "All Too Easy..." have you ever thought that you might have convinced yourself that atheism is true because you want to lead any easier life?
Just wondering.
"Regarding raising kids, I'm not feeling your semi-update to Pascal's Wager. Being frum because the kids might one day not be frum and I might one day return to faith and I might one day regret such a situation is hardly a reason to live my life against my beliefs."
I don't believe in Pascal's wager in any form. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about your kids.
"Lubab No More said...
Joseph,
I explained that racism is wrong because all humans are essentially genetically the same. I believe in the golden rule because it works. Not because of any magical power."
But it doesn't always work. Even when it does work so what? If it has no reality beyond our making it up it is not real. You have beliefs that you believe in because you just do. Racism may be incorrect but why not discriminate? Because you fail to see a reason to or because there is a right and a wrong not made up by us?
> have you ever thought that you might have convinced yourself that atheism is true because you want to lead any easier life?
At this point in my life being an atheist makes my life more difficult. If I wanted to make my life easier I would have to convince myself that OJ is true.
Could you tell me what exactly you're sacrificing for the sake of atheism? Nothing that I can tell. No atheist does.
js
there you again about sacrifice, i know your lord and saviour sacrificed himself for humanity.
People ask why racism is wrong if god didnt tell us its wrong.
Actually, god didnt tell us its wrong, thats why people like js hate blacks. look at major talmudei chachimim and what they thought about blacks. (see xgh blog for post from prof. marc shapiro)
So why should lubabnomore not hate blacks?
one reason is because hate does more damage to your own mindset than it does to the person you hate. Just ask the israeli army what happens to soldiers who serve in occupied terrorties too long. what are they emotionally like when they get out of service. how much psychological help do they need?
when you have the ability to hate, like JS, you get a JS.
What exactly is the bug up your tuches about athiest. why do you give a crap about it?
who cares whats motivating them.
maybe they simply dont want to be OCD like you, and be able to dice some onions for their eggs with onions on shabbos.
What crime is that?
what sacrifices do you as a OJ do?
you dont have sex with anyone you wish to? you dont eat pig? you fast once in a while?
athiests, on the other hand, bear the anger and contempt of people like you. isnt that a sacrifice. wouldnt it be easier for them to daven in your shul, and make believe?
I will personally guarantee, and I have no doubt whatsoever, that every single Orthodox Jew who turns atheist does so for one reason: it’s easier.
There is not one iota, not the tiniest smidgen, of logic, reason, truth, evidence or proof involved. So they don’t feel guilty, they gradually convince themselves that it’s all based on logic, however nothing could be more false.
That self deception is the ultimate sin. That will prevent them from ever repenting. We can only hope that they will leave the community and the sooner the better.
YOU SAID “I explained that racism is wrong because all humans are essentially genetically the same.”
I am sorry I do not understand the logic.
1) Even if you are correct that humans are essentially genetically the same that does not take away the power of millennia of education, environmental impact, social norms and values that create a society. One can be correct in branding different nations or racial groups in different manners and treating them differently. Here are some discussions on the topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence
2) If it would be proven to you that certain races or groupings were NOT essentially genetically the same WOULD IT BE OK to discriminate.
3) In the future if one group begins to evolve faster will they have more rights? Maybe this is happening already?
4) If you believe with complete faith that no group in the human race will evolve faster than any another group will you condemn will meaning people who have come to a different intellectual conclusion hence a different attitude towards racism.
YOU SAID “messianism has robbed it (chabad)of the creativity and excitement it once had”… “I'm not sure what you are driving at with you comments about African-Americans. But it sounds like you are trying to compare a culture (Lubavitch) to a race of people (Black). An apples to oranges comparison.”
My point was you agree that Ideology has an impact just as many other things can have an impact and cause change to a group. You said racism is wrong and I was pointing out to you that even if race is a social or cultural construct it can still have parameters that can be judged as better or worse. This leads to people making judgments regarding the value of different groups. It is just as rational as making comments about any group or affiliation. The black man in America is viewed by many as an Identity just as the WASP is viewed by some or the Jew and the Irish. If you have an identity and you believe it is real it is not neutral there will be your perception of it and there will be the others perception of that same identity. The Black man will say being black is SOMETHING it is not just pigmentation. If one says It is something it becomes something to define. When you define it people have value judgments.
All that being said I fail to see the logic as an atheist as to why forms of racism are wrong.
YOU SAID: I believe in the golden rule because it works… the golden rule is a tool which helps human beings live at peace with one another.” It's just a standard that can be applied to all people and when followed can produce some great results.
Ok in other words if it did not work you would not believe in it? In other words if being Good and caring and nice to others did not cause others to behave the same way would you stop?
If it did not work for you but it did work for society as a whole would you believe in it? Would you run your own life to your detriment in order for society to thrive.
If it DID NOT work for society but it did work for you would you believe in it. Would you continue to follow the golden rule even though it was hurting society?
how does it work?
1)For the individual I do not think it works. What may work is that other people should think I am being nice to them not that I actually am being nice. That may help. But I want to look out for MY GOOD number one what is wrong with that?
Why is it wrong to hurt people if it brings me happiness? There are many manipulative people out there that have wonderful lives. There are many well meaning people that do not have good lives. Look your wife married someone who keeps shabbos and kosher. You now want to lie to her in order to keep her happy and keep the family together. Why should she not lie to you when she realizes that she is love with someone else but she wants to keep you happy and keep the family together. In other words the golden rule is dispensable when you have other desires like flicking the switch on your thermostat.
2) For society as a whole it may not work either. An argument can be made that by helping the weak the failures we are holding back the evolution of humanity. If we did not pour our resources at societies weakest we would all be better off. Those who have unique talents and abilities will flourish and those that do not will die out leaving a higher breed of human. Instead humanity has created an entire system of welfare and charity to help the weakest to survive HARMING the good of Humanity as a whole. Look at natural selection the STRONG SURVIVE. You have bought into the ideas of your G-d and religion that there is some value in helping others! Your being nice is killing society.
3)If you are doing it for the benefit of yourself or society or both, as soon as a situation arises where the value one gets from the golden rule is outweighed by the benefit of ignoring it WHY NOT IGNORE IT.
You said “The golden rule doesn't apply to animals.”
Wow! Why not because you don’t see the benefit? because they can’t hurt you? Because you are stronger? Do they not feel pain? Are humans not animals? So If you have a society that is more advanced, cultured and powerful than other countries and the stronger one can wipe out the other one and take its resources is that OK? Why not?
LNM,
It seems that you are still in the process of re-defining your identity vis a vis Judaism. Just remember not to have black and white thinking, and that you don't have to choose between JP's straw-man Dawkins hard core atheist, on one hand, and Lubav or JP's fundamentalism, on the other. Part of our growing up is understanding shades of grey, which some of the commentators on this blog still haven't developed...
LNM,
I chanced upon your blog several weeks ago and I open it with trepidation, afraid of what I will find next. As a member of your community and a mother of several young adult children I find the current trend of young marrieds(and singles) losing their religion very disturbing. I'm not here to judge, I'm just very sad to read about the road your taking.
Now I'm no zealot, and am very lazy about my religion, I do what I need to get by. When I was younger I experimented with ideas that most or possibly none of my classmates dreamt off. I didn't feel close to G-d and consequently felt no obligation to keep His mitzvot. But there came a time in my young adulthood that I made a conscious decision that I wanted to remain within the fold. That I did not want to want to cut myself off from my friends and family, so I chose to go with the flow. And I'm happy that I did. I've come to the conclusion that life without some kind of faith is empty, barren, lacking. Throwing off the burden of Torah is a cop out for lazy Jews. I don't believe, so why bother? Even a hopeless drunk, hitting rock bottom realized that "belief in a higher power" is number one on his list of "twelve steps".
Best of luck on your journey,
chchikc said:
" I've come to the conclusion that life without some kind of faith is empty, barren, lacking. "
I have often said the same thing, as an outside observer of secular society. Yet many secularists have a "faith" too, just not in the conventional religious sense, but belief in certain "isms", be it leftism. socialism. activism, whatever. At the same time many outwardly religious people are hollow. It is true that religion makes it much easier to give meaning and structure to life, but its not the only way....
"Throwing off the burden of Torah is a cop out for lazy Jews"
This may be true for some but its definitely an over generalization. Ultimately any of our commitments and behaviors are related to a benefit to us, real or perceived, and are based on a world view. If the world view changes, a it does for some, it is bound to change the focus of our efforts, not because of laziness. As LNM pointed out, the easy, lazy thing for him to to would be to have left things the way they were.
"As LNM pointed out, the easy, lazy thing for him to to would be to have left things the way they were."
I'm afraid I must beg to differ. Lubab's atheism is surely a huge relief for him. I can't even imagine how much more relaxed my life would be if I didn't have to worry about divine reward and punishment. Even if I still observed everything, and Lubab doesn't, the fact that I can potentially do whatever I want to with no fear of God would be hugely liberating.
This, combined with the type of lame "questions" atheists ask about religion, I think makes their motives pretty obvious.
What would you have said about a Jew living in Europe 200 years ago who embraced Christianity because he "sincerely saw the light"? There were people like that.
Orthodox Judaism is a series of "do's and don'ts". JP says that those of us who question it are only seeking to make our lives easier; that we object to these laws because we are lazy.
Personally, I object about many laws in religion. Some laws are onerous. Others are stupid. Currently I am reading the laws of Shemitah. It seems to me that the Torah tells us explicitly to observe a shemitah year. Yet our rabbis have in effect given us a lame "out". A simple buy-sell transaction, or frusbal, as they call it, effectively nullifies this law, mentioned at least twice in the Torah.
Here, JP, I am objecting to the way in which an important law is interpreted. It does not make my life easier or harder one way or another. The impact of this law to my life is irrelevant. Yet fairness and logic dictates that we examine these issues.
Your habit, though, is to always find an ulterior, often nefarious, motive behind analysis of law. Stop it!
My feelings about ex-Orthodoxy often surface in my dreams. I'm a lot like rich perkins in practice.
I noticed that a lot of folks on this blog espouse raising kids Orthodox, and not giving them much of a choice. Again, I suggest that everyone on this blog think very carefully about this. If you raise your kids with a certain point of view, what will you do when they reject it? And how will you deal with the fallout? It's unrealistic to expect kids in this day and age to grow up accepting your faith, or anything else for that matter.
As it says in Pirkei Avot (5th chapter): A love founded on one specific thing disappears with that thing; a love founded on no particular thing lasts forever. Found your family on unconditional love, choice, openness, and mutual respect and you will be "dressing for success."
Bad, shmita is still observed by the ultra-Orthodox. If you are an Israeli farmer, you should do likewise.
Ben, my love for my children is absolutely conditional. If they leave observance, I don’t love them any more. It’s as simple as that. I love God more than them.
The problem with Hareidim who add and add to the torah in violation of the torah is that you confuse the often silly practices with the actual torah.
Just as the story of Eve telling the snake she wasn't to touch the tree lest she die, led to violation of the true commandment of not eating from the tree, so too can non Halachic practices like cholov yisroel, 2 pairs of tfillin, thousand dollar wigs lead to confusion and violation of the torah.
You can be a clean shaven (electric razor) non Yarmulka wearing Jew and keep all the mitzvot applicable today.
Or you can play dress up and despise your fellow Jew in direct violation of the Torah.
Interesting post.
Personally? I think that the first time anyone breaks halacha (or minhagim) , they expect to get hit with lightening...and when it doesn't happen it gets a whole lot easier.
Cool blog btw
Chaya,
I am totally with you on the lighting thing.
Thanks for the compliment!
Anon,
The basic problem with being racist is that you are making assumptions about people based on very little information. If you deny someone a job because they are black then you may be making a serious business mistake. That candidate may be great, or he may be terrible. The point is you don't know anything about him based on his skin color. This argument extends to peoples culture too. If the candidate is from the-other-side-of-the-tracks you still can't make assumptions. The kid might have gone to Harvard. You just don't know until to get to know someone. You have to evaluate people on a case-by-case basis.
As far as human races evolving at different rates I leave any discussion of Morlocks and Eloi to Mr. Wells.
> Ok in other words if [the golden rule] did not work you would not believe in it?
Yes. I follow it because it works. If it didn't I would stop.
You seem to think I think the Golden Rule has some kind of magical power. I don't. I follow it because it works to create the community I want to live in.
> If you are doing it for the benefit of yourself or society or both, as soon as a situation arises where the value one gets from the golden rule is outweighed by the benefit of ignoring it WHY NOT IGNORE IT.
I could ignore it. But then I wouldn't be following the rule. For this rule to work many people need to subscribe to it. It can't work in a vacuum. Like Judaism, or any other man made culture, it works when most members of the community commit to following the rule(s). It is an artificial creation that produces positive results.
(BTW, when you write in ALL CAPS on the internet or in email it is considered screaming. I'm assuming you didn't intend to be rude.)
What's this business of lightening striking? Ridiculous! When you eat a good steak, or fetticcini alfredo do you feel your cholesterol go up as you eat? Can you feel yourself instantaneously gain weight? No. Will you get a stomach ache if you eat treif? Maybe, but you won't end up in the ER. Just as you have the capacity to make smart choices in your day to day life, humans were granted "Bechira Chofshit" free choice to make Ben adam lamokom, ben adam lichavero, It's nbetween you and G-d or you and Mankind. Do the right thing, or don't nobaody is forcing your hand. Lightening won't strike, bells don't ring, not even a gong. You won't fall off the radar screen.
chchick:
"What's this business of lightening striking? Ridiculous!"
Exactly the point.
"When you eat a good steak, or fetticcini alfredo do you feel your cholesterol go up as you eat?"
No, but you can test and see the results afterwards. Now what if I were to tell you that eating mayonnaise makes your aura go all cloudy and causes pain to millions of invisible qeuzeeble's? Of course, you're not going to see that as you eat... or afterwards. Ever. But that is what actually happens.
I didn't mean that nothing happens, but nothing that can be measured in a vial of blood. And not lightening. When halacha is broken deliberately there is a whole chain reaction. 1. The "perp" has contaminated himself with the violation. 2. He has gotten his high and sees that nothing major happened to him and so feels less guilt to commit future sins. 3. He has distanced himself from G-d with this one sin and feels there is no turning back.
It's like when I break my diet. The first bite of a forbidden food is the begining of the end. I know it's almost impossible for me to get back on the wagon.
RG 8:53
If a person isn't frum and his kids are frum he does have something to lose. Suppose the kids become haredi or hasidic. If you're not frum that can break your heart.
LNM 1:50
But the golden rule doesn't work. It makes almost no sense. You can't treat people like you'd like to be treated or not treat people the way you wouldn't like to be treated because their tastes might be different. Also, what if a person is unprincipled, and wants something but doesn't really have a right to it. How does the golden rule work in that situation?
JP 10:50
Are you sure about that?
Ichabod Chrain
Ichabod
> You can't treat people like you'd like to be treated or not treat people the way you wouldn't like to be treated because their tastes might be different.
People basically want to be left alone. Humans freak out a little when they are confronted. Most people agree with the bill of rights, or some similar human rights document. The golden rule plays to our similarities, not our differences.
chchick:
"I didn't mean that nothing happens"
I know; that is what *I* mean. Your list of things that happen when someone sins are about as plausible as my list of things that happen when someone eats mayonnaise. ("Contaminated"???)
I'm no scholar, nor a philosopher, I don't even like to debate. But it doesn't take a genious to figure out that when one eats pork the neshama feels it. And when one watches porn it's also having an effect on one's soul. So I contend that the word "contaminate" is not too harsh to use in this context.
"But it doesn't take a genious to figure out that when one eats pork the neshama feels it"
LOL. Now I know that you are not a scholar nor philosopher! And a word of advice, please do not debate!
I just feel so sad for your wife. Your decision to leave OJ may be based on reason and logic and whatnot, but by your own admission you are sneaking and lying. And those are behaviours that tear a marriage apart, no matter what the subject matter of the sneaking and lying is.
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