I am getting a new wave of parents begging me to speak to their children. The profile is chillingly similar: 13-14 years old boys and girls. High achieving in school. No emotional problems; great, respectful kids from great homes. Well adjusted. They just don’t want to be frum. Period. They are eating on Yom Kippur, not keeping Shabbos, not keeping kosher; et al.Is this a new phenomenon? Rabbi Horowitz, a professional in the field, seems to think so. So, then what changed?
Earlier this week, I was arguing that the net will make more skeptics out of frummies (Getting Rid of the Bad Internets). I think the biggest change in the education of these kids is that they grew up with access to the internet. AOL 1.0 for Windows was released in 1993. About 13-14 years ago. Sure, there were other kinds of access before 1993 but America Online made the internet mainstream. These kids have had access to the net and all the information is has to offer their entire lives.
There was nothing like going into the AOL room "Jewish Youth Chat" and flirting with teenage Jewish girls without the fear that your Rebbe was going to catch you. Takes me back. [sigh] I can almost hear the 14K dial-up modem now.
30 comments:
so wait, what exactly is your contention here? that internet access has made kids skeptical, or that it has made it too easy for kids to get into 'unorthodox'behaviors? bc from what I know of 14 yr old kids, most of them aren't really having existential crises, so much.
I think Miri is correct. Very few 14 year olds sit down and come to a conclusion that G-d does or does not exist. I will agree that the internet exposes them to many new desires that the community was shelterd from 20 years ago.
For the most part 14 year-olds are chasing after their desires.
I think it's pretty obvious that atheism has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with sex.
I think most 14 year olds DO question if god exists. Kids think about it in grade school. They might not be reading Nietzsche but they search the net for answers.
Another point I'm trying to make is that kids are exposed to ideas and experiences that were previously restricted to them. For example they can now interact with people they wouldn't have previously. I was able to chat with girls online with ease. I was only able to meet girls that quickly because of access to the net. Perhaps doing things you're told you shouldn't and finding out they aren't so bad opens one to a new perspective.
"I was able to chat with girls online with ease."
I'm sure those discussions mainly centered on Darwin and his relevance to religion. Or perhaps pros and cons of the Graf-Wellhausen hypothesis.
Kids are able to read all kind of opinions and thoughts of others. They understand that being frum is not the only way to live. I think that we will be seeing more people being skeptical of a frum lifestyle.The Jewish philosopher is no philosopher. He thinks that kids leaving the frum world has to do with sex. Every kid of every religion thinks of sex thats what makes kids, kids.
I'm living proof that 14, 15 year olds do question and grab every and any piece of information they can to make sense of religion.
Some teens grow up faster then others and do think about things besides them. Shocker there.
"The Jewish philosopher is no philosopher."
Can I challenge you to a duel, sir?
To say that's all about sex is just incredibly condescending to people with doubts - both teenagers and otherwise.
Indeed, if you read the link, you'd see that these kids are not promiscuous or into drugs. They are just not into observance.
I could more plausibly argue the reverse - observance isn't about God, its about being part of a traditional community.
To say atheism is all about sex is oversimplifying. It's mostly about sex. [Just by the way, my first wife dropped out of being Frum, so I have a little experience here. Check my profile for details.]
It's also about other stuff:
Laziness. For example, I don't want to daven.
Embarrassment. I don't want to be different from other people.
Anger. I hate my parents and want to get them back.
Pride. I don't want some rabbi telling what I may or may not do.
Anyway, I finally read Rabbi Horowitz's article. He mentions that he is aware of 15 cases of this new type of drop out. That's not a mass movement.
I think as the Frum community grows, we are likely to see more of everything - probably more great Torah scholars and more very wicked people and everything in between.
Of the approx 5 million Jews in the USA about 10% are Orthodox- 500,00 Jews within the Ortho-spectrum- shtremiel wearing to NY/Hampton Syangouge types. That leaves 4.5 million Jews who are somewhat affiliated or not at all. Of those 4.5 million some are criminals, child molesters, business people, physicians, dentists, rebbis, teachers. Most of them (US) have parents, children, friends, family who love them just as much as the frum mommy & tati love their kinderlach. They are normal people who don't give a second glance at an esrog or a tefillen bag. I don't think they think their lives are lacking anything. Can't the rabbi horowitzes of the world get that into their thick gemorah heads!
"I don't think they think their lives are lacking anything."
Other than knowledge of the truth, meaning and purpose in life, service of their Creator, no, lacking nothing.
"I don't think they think their lives are lacking anything. Can't the rabbi horowitzes of the world get that into their thick gemorah heads!"
Actually, you're wrong. My secular Jewish friends are often trying to find time to SLOW down, to develop SPIRITUALITY, to raise their kids with VALUES, running to therapists for guru-like advice, on and on. They read self-help books, buy Lululemon yoga pants...alas, they continue to seek what is right in front of their faces.
Judaism is hard, hard, hard. No doubt about it. The riches are plenty, but it ain't 5 min of meditation and a bowl of organic cereal.
So don't kid yourself, some Jewish learning and shabbos would do wonders for them. And I say this as as a shrink who remains employed due to the stressors and ennui of modern day living.
Well, it's shabbat already here in NY JP you're exhibiting a typical ortho-centric syndrome Your'e typical Chabad sheluchim navigate their way into peoples bank accounts with a little nigun, gefitle fish, challa and kugel. Believe U me their bank accounts not their hearts. Don't get me wrong. I love being Jewish. But that don't mean that my is lacking if I don't waive an chicken over my head or dance 3 times on my heels during the amidah . Anyway, I think shabbat is a wonderful concept and I hope all of you have a good one. I will have a great one!
can we please try and keep the bashing of any specific affiliation to a minimum? and jay, I grew up in chabbad, and my bank account is none the worse for wear on their behalf.
I would like to say this; having grown up a believer in OJ, the child of two baalei tehuvah; ultimately, you can't count on anything to give you a sense of meaning and well being. it doesn't matter how religous or atheistic you are; everyone will have their moments of despair, anguish, depression, and realization of the futility of existence. it doesn't really matter what you do in between them, nothing makes those go away forever. not religion. not non-religion. it's a part of the thinking human's general condition, VIZEHU.
Lub no More
I used to hit shamis.com right after shabbos ( to see who died in CH) but now your'e my first hit
Thanks Jay! I'm flattered.
Can I challenge you to a duel, sir?
OIK Jewish Philosopher. At dawn with pistols ? If it's gonna be a match of wits, you will lose before you start.
I wanted sabers.
"everyone will have their moments of despair, anguish, depression, and realization of the futility of existence"
But there is a difference.
The frum world loves to blame people going off the derech on sex, laziness and just "bad experiences".
JP- some people don't find the same arguments as plausible as you do. Nothing to do with sex or laziness or anger or embarrassment. It is much easier to think that everyone who is not like you is that way because of their inferior controls over base drives, but that really is a very limited view of human complexity.
"It's also about other stuff:
Laziness. For example, I don't want to daven."
There's something wrong with laziness?
JP, if you think not wanting to daven is just due to laziness, then I think you don't understand why it is that people don't daven. To some people the davening doesn't mean anything, so why spend 20-45 minutes in the morning doing something that doesn't mean anything to them, and then do more davening in the afternoon and night, only to repeat the same thing over and over again, especially when part of the davening is historically questionable, and much of the rest is either filled with redundancies, or is better suited for medieval times.
Why for example do we ask to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem? What does it need walls for? If it needed walls some public spirited entrepreneur can get a permit, take out a loan, and put them up. You don't need to daven for that.
There's plenty of other examples. Just look at Musaf.
Ichabod Chrain
"The frum world loves to blame people going off the derech on sex, laziness and just "bad experiences"."
And the atheist world doesn't love to blame a need for community, emotional insecurity, brainwashing, etc. for people being religious? Someone is probably wrong here.
"You don't need to daven for that."
Daven for a nice siddur with commentaries.
"Of the approx 5 million Jews in the USA about 10% are Orthodox- 500,00 Jews within the Ortho-spectrum- shtremiel wearing to NY/Hampton Syangouge types."
I think the true number would be closer to 20%.
"Your'e typical Chabad sheluchim navigate their way into peoples bank accounts with a little nigun, gefitle fish, challa and kugel."
That's false.
On the contrary Lubavitch isn't charging.
"Why for example do we ask to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem? What does it need walls for?"
It doesn't. We are talking about rebuilding Jerusalem.
RG said "We are talking about rebuilding Jerusalem."
That doesn't answer the question. If Jerusalem needs to be rebuilt, some entrepreneurs can do it. We don't have to pray for it. And if you don't pray for it, it doesn't mean you're lazy.
Ichabod Chrain
"Anonymous said...
RG said "We are talking about rebuilding Jerusalem."
That doesn't answer the question. If Jerusalem needs to be rebuilt, some entrepreneurs can do it. We don't have to pray for it. And if you don't pray for it, it doesn't mean you're lazy.
Ichabod Chrain"
Of course people will do it. If you see a wall you would say it is from people. But G-d works through people too. Like Moses.
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