The Jewish blogosphere is still abuzz about Sunday's Ha'aretz story 5 Haredi men beat woman who refused to move to back of bus. Yesterday, Rabbi Horowitz encouraged more discussion of this issue by posting an article titled Enough is Enough! by Miriam Shear. Miriam was the victim of a similar attack last November. In her personal, and reflective article she discusses her feelings at the time of the incident and the growing issue of Jewish religious violence (or what I like to call Jiwhad).
I like Miriam's article but I was taken aback by the following passage. It describes the alleged reason for the separate seating on the bus:
It has been brought to my attention a few times that the arbitrary decision by the #2 bus riders to make this line Mehadrin was instituted as a response to the horrific bombing on this line a few years prior. In an effort to provide more physical protection, it was decided to increase the spiritual value of tznius – and its inherent protection – by implementing a separate seating arrangement. [links added]The riders implemented separate seating to provide the bus with protection from suicide bombings! This idea boggles my mind. I literally paused for a second after I read it. I used to think like a fundamentalist. For example, I once thought painting over a Calvin Klein bus ad without permission from the transit authority was appropriate. (I never acted on this thought.) My surprise at this "logic" reminded me just how far I've removed myself from that world.
Is there a textual source for this attempt at protection?
For some reason this approach makes me think of prayer. We pray to god and ask him for all sorts of help and protection. But, when I've talked to Rabbis and others about my belief that prayer doesn't work I've been given a number of answers. "Prayer isn't a cash machine" or the classic "sometimes the answer is No." Another explanation I've been given is "prayer is for you, not for God." This last idea implies that god isn't going to change his plans for us but we benefit personally from the reflection that comes with prayer. While I disagree with this approach it makes more sense to me than the idea that god actually cares. It seems that your statistical chances remain the same regardless of prayer.
Does enforcing separate seating on a bus decrease the chance it will blow up in a suicide attack? Is separate seating just as good as prayer? Does prayer make a difference or are actions, like prayer and separate seating, just for our benefit and not for God?
(Vertigo from U2's How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb)
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35 comments:
You're not making sense. Do you expect prayer to be that G-d gives you whatever you pray for? No one says that. Viewed your way prayer does not work. If you pray for whatever you want to happen to happen of course by definition it won't work all the time. If you are using the phrase prayer doesn't work in the sense of getting what you want it doesn't allways work of course. But in the sense of how it is really said to work it works.
"Does prayer make a difference or are actions, like prayer and separate seating, just for our benefit and not for God?"
Does writing letters to your Congressman make a difference? Or participating in political demonstrations? Maybe, maybe not. But it still can't hurt.
If you are using the phrase prayer doesn't work in the sense of getting what you want it doesn't allways work of course. But in the sense of how it is really said to work it works
So how does it really work ? I am still alive, so are many people who never pray. I make a living, so do many people who never pray. So tell me, what does it really do if anything at all. Avi
Does writing letters to your Congressman make a difference? Or participating in political demonstrations? Maybe, maybe not. But it still can't hurt.
October 25, 2007
It cant hurt to take a bouble dose of cough medecine every day either, but why would you want to. Davening definately cant hurt but neither does meditation or praying to Jesus either. You wanna try that?
Hey Jewish Non Philosopher. I am still waiting for the debate that you challanged me to. No pistols, no knives, just our minds. My thinking mind against your robot mind. Avi, yeah me Avi. My wife with the sign on 59
Lubab,
Does God need prayers? No, He does not, but how do you know that He is not going to change His mind?
I'm just pointing out that if you write a letter to President Bush asking him to end the war in Iraq, and next week you open the newspaper and the war hasn't ended, that doesn't prove that what you did was useless and you're a fool for bothering.
I think prayer works the same way.
"I'm just pointing out that if you write a letter to President Bush asking him to end the war in Iraq, and next week you open the newspaper and the war hasn't ended, that doesn't prove that what you did was useless and you're a fool for bothering.
I think prayer works the same way."
I don't quite understand your concept of God, but it seems that your anthropomorphosis of God belittles the concept of God you speak of. Is he subject to persuasion, emotional pressure, to change His actions (implying imperfection)? If you really ask nicely, might he grant your wish?
Either you have to say that prayer affects his action or it doesn't. Either way there's a contradiction: If prayer doesn't help, why do it (unless its like meditation, etc) and if it does, was does it say about a perfect God?
There's also the Yeshayahu Leibovitz approach-- prayer is just your job, like other mitzvot, and not for your benefit. Your responsibility is avodat hashem, period. Personally I find this difficult to accept.
The chasidic approach is the most absurd- that the world was created just for Jews
LBN,
As long as you have embarked on this path, I can recommend 2 excellent books, assuming you haven't read them already, by historian Richard Elliot Friedman:
1.The Hidden Face of God
2.Who Wrote the Bible?
These books explore the two most fundamental aspects of religious faith, from a critical historical perspective. The second one was a real eye opener for me, I first read it about 15 years ago, when my skepticism began.
I actually gave a shiur on this once. The idea that yeah, sometimes prayer is completely ineffectual, but sometimes G-d creates situations in order for you to argue with Him. Those of us from a chassidic background have heard many such stories; x,y, or z gezeirah was supposed to happen, until the town fasted and prayed and disaster was averted. Like sometimes G-d uses prayer as a means of getting our attention.But sometimes, He's got something in mind, and even if it seems bad, it's really for the best. That would be the typical reasoning anyway, I guess.
The fact of the matter is that religion exists for people, not for G-d. So, you know. Whatever works.
"The fact of the matter is that religion exists for people, not for G-d. So, you know. Whatever works."
I completely agree. And, I know alot of religious, even outwardly ultra-orthodox people, who, in private, feel the same way. They simply choose to be part of their community for personal reasons (family/spouse, intertia, liking the framework, etc). It does require dealing with some degree of cognitive dissonance.
I would much rather attend a conservative syangauge on shabbat except for the fact that the humongous main santuary has about 40 octogenarians in attendance and no kiddish to speak of
>1.The Hidden Face of God
Hey, great book. Actually, this book gave me some chizuk in emunah
"Anonymous said...
If you are using the phrase prayer doesn't work in the sense of getting what you want it doesn't allways work of course. But in the sense of how it is really said to work it works
So how does it really work ? I am still alive, so are many people who never pray. I make a living, so do many people who never pray. So tell me, what does it really do if anything at all. Avi"
It affects you and if you are different your circumstances may be affected. Cause and affect.
BEEHIVE,
> Does God need prayers? No, He does not, but how do you know that He is not going to change His mind?
If he exists, I have no way of knowing that he might change his mind. But I get the clear impression that prayer doesn't make a difference. People succeed or fail, heal or get sick regardless of their prayers. It would seem positive thinking can be helpful. This may take the form of prayer but then it's not god's doing, its the person.
DrJ,
> There's also the Yeshayahu Leibovitz approach-- prayer is just your job, like other mitzvot, and not for your benefit. Your responsibility is avodat hashem, period. Personally I find this difficult to accept.
That sounds meaningless. It seems to acknowledge that prayer has no effect and that you don't get anything out of it. Like a assembly line job with no pay. Scary.
Thanks for the book recommendations!
Miri,
> The fact of the matter is that religion exists for people, not for G-d.
Then if religion doesn't work for me why should I be religious? Why should god obligate us at all?
Holy Hyrax,
> The Hidden Face of God... this book gave me some chizuk in emunah
Very interesting. Personally, I want to read more but I feel like I'm in this place where anything I read is going to just push me farther away. (Whenever I had doubts Mishna Brurah would always push me farther away.) I need to talk to my Rabbi.
ofcourse that book (for example) is going to push you away. Look face it. There is NO point for you to read any more books. You don't beleive in God. To get into ANY question of an authenticity to a revelation has to start from there. Whats the point of reading more books? Maybe just to have some ammunition against fundamentalist, or maybe its this feeling of being denied so much in the past, now you want to have your crack at the "system" and read as much kfira as possible.
HH,
I agree. Books aren't going to change my mind. If I wasn't trying to become (intellectually) frum for my wife I would say the point of reading books is to learn, hear others opinions and find new perspectives. The thing is these books don't hold the specific perspective I'm shopping for.
"If he exists, I have no way of knowing that he might change his mind. But I get the clear impression that prayer doesn't make a difference. People succeed or fail, heal or get sick regardless of their prayers. It would seem positive thinking can be helpful. This may take the form of prayer but then it's not god's doing, its the person."
G-d is the one that causes everything to be.
"Miri,
> The fact of the matter is that religion exists for people, not for G-d.
Then if religion doesn't work for me why should I be religious? Why should god obligate us at all?"
What's in it for you. Whatever happened to do something right because it is?
"The thing is these books don't hold the specific perspective I'm shopping for."
Hedonism? Wasn't the point not for you to shop but to see other perspectives so you could see if you were wrong? I think you want things the way they are for you now and no amount of reading is going to change that.
> Wasn't the point not for you to shop but to see other perspectives so you could see if you were wrong?
As usual you've misread or ignored what I wrote. The specific perspective I'm shopping for is Torah Judaism.
Again your focus is to try to poke a hole in an argument. Unfortunately for you, no argument was presented. I asked some questions and you told me that I am wrong. I'm not sure what to make of that.
I'm looking for the truth. I believe that we can understand the world around us. I want a perspective of the universe that makes sense. In all of your posts you haven't provided anything of the sort.
Hi Lubab,
I tried to sign up using my name, but it doesn't seem to work.
I personally do not believe in Torah Mi Sinai, but I do definitely believe in G-d.
I do not know you personally, but your argument for atheism
might result from the fact that you may have been brought on the
"all or nothing" approach ie.
you either believe in G-d and Torah Mi Sinai and all the teaching of Chazal as one block or you are a total apikoros (apikorot?). So since you cannot accept Torah Mi Sinai and Chazal, you say that you do not believe in G-d.
I believe in G-d because I was taught from a very young age to separate the belief from the beliefs of any one particular Jewish faction. Therefore although my religious observance changes (I am slowly becoming more religious), my belief in G-d is non-negotiable and does not depend on any one religious faction or rabbi. By the way, have you checked out Karaite Judaism? You should "google" them. They have some very good ideas. I am not Karaite myself, but they have some good ideas. Another book you might want to look at is "Man's search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl.
Regards,
Dave.
LNM-
"Then if religion doesn't work for me why should I be religious? Why should god obligate us at all?"
I wasn't trying to say you should be religious. But do you see the inherent contradiction in what you wrote there? If there is no G-d, clearly no one did obligate us - and if you believe that, that's why Torah Judaism doesn't work for you. What you said sounded like "Maybe G-d did obligate us, but I just don't want to do it." Which is of course also a perspective, just not the one you claim to hold. So which is it?
"Lubab No More said...
> Wasn't the point not for you to shop but to see other perspectives so you could see if you were wrong?
As usual you've misread or ignored what I wrote. The specific perspective I'm shopping for is Torah Judaism."
I haven't seen you shop for it. You raise arguments against and don't consider other perpesctives.
"Again your focus is to try to poke a hole in an argument. Unfortunately for you, no argument was presented. I asked some questions and you told me that I am wrong. I'm not sure what to make of that."
I presented arguments and they poked holes that you failed to address. If you want me to not poke holes give me something I can agree with. I'm never one to poke holes unless I happen to disagree. If I see a hole I'll poke at it. I don't need religion to be rationally upheld. It so happens that great parts of it are. I have nothing to lose. So I don't need holes to search for. Even if I did if they are there, they are. Instead of addressing everything I and Orthoprax and maybe Jewish Philosopher said you drop off the conversation.
"I'm looking for the truth. I believe that we can understand the world around us. I want a perspective of the universe that makes sense. In all of your posts you haven't provided anything of the sort."
How would you know as you dropped the conversation? You're disclaimer of what I wrote is too blanket a statement. Lubabnomore you are fooling yourself if you actually think you are seriously searching. I'm not laughing. This isn't a ball game. If you don't want our help fine but don't pretend to yourself you are searching.
You are the one looking for holes.
All you have done is tell me I am wrong. With me I always described why you are wrong. If you think I and Orthoprax are wrong about things address what we say.
> Instead of addressing everything I and Orthoprax and maybe Jewish Philosopher said you drop off the conversation.
I address what you say. You simply reject my point of view. I'll make my argument but I won't waste my time posting endless messages trying to convince you of it. I don't care if you disagree with me. I am trying to examine things rationally. You say you "don't need religion to be rationally upheld." If so then we're talking two different languages. What you call "helping" I call "avoiding the question". If you have a coherent argument for believing in God, Torah and halacha then present it. If you just want to spam my posts with incomprehensible sentences and pseudo-logical arguments then don't expect me to respond.
Miri,
I'm assuming God exists for the sake of the question. The question was a response to your comment that religion is for people, not for God. I'm asking why would God obligate us to worship Him if religion is for us? If religion is for the people then why would he give us a book of commandments and an oral tradition which details how to serve Him? Religion as a means to serve God makes more sense than religion to better man. If God just wants us to achieve some spiritual level on our own for its own sake then why create us in the first place? It makes more sense that he created us to serve Him. Or, perhaps that by achieving some spiritual level we are serving Him, in which case religion is ultimately for God.
I feel like the answer to my question is "We can't understand God." Of course if we can't understand Him then why do we question and try to understand his written and oral tradition? The whole thing just doesn't make any sense.
Dave,
I agree that I have an "all or nothing" approach, but only to a degree. (I've posted about it a little.) However, I do separate 1) God, 2) Torah from Sinai, and 3) messora/halacha as three separate beliefs. The Cliff Notes of my beliefs are: 3) messorah is clearly flawed and the construct of man. So if halacha isn't divine why would you follow it anymore than any other man made system?, 2) the Torah reads like it was written by man (not God) and DH appears to back that up, finally, 1) I don't see any reason to believe that god exists, let alone see any reason for why he would care what we do here on Earth.
LNM,
I went through a similar trial period after I told my wife about my newfound disbelief in God. I promised her that I would try to regain my lost faith for a few months before I gave up hope.
As I read the religious texts from my tradition, all I could see were the glaring flaws in logic and reprehensible morality they preached. The more I read, the more involved in church I was, the farther away from regaining faith I seemed to be. Eventually, I couldn't take it anymore and confessed to my wife that trying to be faithful was just making me resent religion.
I'm not presuming that this is how your story will be, but I recognize a lot of what you're experiencing.
Jonathan,
Another Mormon! Very interesting. I always thought Islam was culturally very close to Orthodox Judaism. It's facinating that there seems to be some resonance with Mormonism. (That or Jews and Mormons spend a lot of time on the internet.)
Thanks for sharing your story. It's always reassuring to know that other people have been through this. I'll check out your blog.
"I address what you say. You simply reject my point of view."
You have dropped conversations. We raise points that you haven't addressed.
"I'll make my argument but I won't waste my time posting endless messages trying to convince you of it. I don't care if you disagree with me."
That's not the issue. The issue is debating it.
"I am trying to examine things rationally. You say you "don't need religion to be rationally upheld." If so then we're talking two different languages. What you call "helping" I call "avoiding the question"."
But I haven't avoided any questions. I may not need religion to be so rationally examined but I do so. As I pointed out.
"If you have a coherent argument for believing in God, Torah and halacha then present it."
What do you think me and Orthoprax have been doing. Each from our perspectives on definition. You have rejected without addressing both my frum arguments and Orthoprax's less frum arguments.
"If you just want to spam my posts with incomprehensible sentences and pseudo-logical arguments then don't expect me to respond."
If would address the points instead of labeling what you disagree without making an argument as to why you label them so, you would get somewhere. But from the above I see you are not interested.
"Religion as a means to serve God makes more sense than religion to better man."
It's the same thing to G-d. Why should G-d care for us to serve Him without it being an improvement of ourselves and others. We don't have anything to give Him.
I feel an affinity for the stories of those from the Orthodox background. It seems we have a lot in common, from what I read.
If you visit my blog, reading about my awakening is a good place to start. :)
Does Prayer work?
First, to respond to the "Jewish philosopher", who compares praying to Gof with writing a letter to President Bush: Writing a letter once in a while is one thing. Davening for hours and hours three times a day? Who are you kidding?
Does prayer work? This question in not so different than asking, say, "does vitamin A work?" To answer the question, you need to standardize things: What preparation of Vit A? What dose? What disease are we treating? How do we define efficacy? Once these questions are answered, then a prospective randomized test can truly answer this question.
It thus behooves the advocates of prayer to conduct this kind of test. A similar experiment was performed by Christians, published in American J of Cardiac Disease (I think - the article was published 1 year ago) which showed no efficacy with prayer.
Until such studies are definitively reported, we have to look suspiciously at efficacy of prayer beyond a placebo effect.
Lubab,
"If he exists, I have no way of knowing that he might change his mind. But I get the clear impression that prayer doesn't make a difference. People succeed or fail, heal or get sick regardless of their prayers. It would seem positive thinking can be helpful. This may take the form of prayer but then it's not god's doing, its the person."
So this is more of a domino effect of good intentions or good Karma? If so, I can handle that.
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