Today the issue was that our OJ friend doesn't appear to wear titzit as often as he used to. Somehow this turned into us drawing a crude diagram of the spectrum of Judaism Left-to-Right and marking ourselves on it. It was an interesting exercise. (Click the image to see a larger version of my rough reproduction).
When I put myself in the non-believers box YR got a little spooked. He challenged my statement that I "don't believe" and suggested that I should talk to his normal Reform Rabbi (normal meaning, not full of himself). He seemed to have a real issue with the idea of non-believing, which was interesting. So, I turned the tables on him and asked his stance on what I see as the two most important questions about being Jewish: 1) Do you believe in god? and 2) Do you believe that the Torah was given to Moshe at Sinai? He said yes to belief in god but said he doesn't know what the whole Torah at Sinai thing was all about. He was kind of taking a stance of I don't know/don't care about that. So I pressed a little. "Then why be Jewish?" He said that to him Reform is about family, community and culture and coming together on a regular basis. Which was a new point of view for me. I hadn't heard that take on Reform before. But, it seems to me that there is more going on. I think I'll give his Rabbi call and see what his take is.
7 comments:
Lubab;
It is important to separate religion from Judaism. The former has do to with God, with Sinai, with Talmud, and with superstition. In other words, the former is a load of crap.
The latter, on the other hand, has to do with tradition, with identity, with community and with ritual. One need not believe in the former to have the latter.
Personally, I am a non-believer, think that God does not exist, and that the "revelation" was almost certainly a non-event. But, at the same time, I will go to shul, shmooze with my friends, drink the wine, eat the food, and enjoy myself to the fullest when the new year rolls around
badrabbi, I am with you all the way. Keep the Kiddush Club drop the Kiddush!
Bad rabbi and Lubob, don't you think you guys would have more fun in a pub or cigar lounge?
Another important accomplishment of Reform Judaism is its dedication to tikkun olam, i.e. making the world a better place. Not only for Jews, but for ALL races and peoples. In this way, Reform Judaism embraces what is perhaps the loftiest, most noble verse in the Torah (Lev. 19:24), on how to properly relate to non-Jews: "As a citizen among you shall be the foreigner (ger) who lives among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were foreigners (gerim) in the land of Egypt—I am Hashem your God."
Notice also that the word ger means not convert, but foreigner. This is always its meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures (only in Rabbinic literature does it come to imply a convert to Judaism).
1. you left out reconstructionists, or do you not consider them jewish?
2. i think you (and your coworker) are confusing religiousity with orthodoxy. I think Orthodoxy is a set of beleifs/laws about how judaism works. while religiousity is the amount to which you conform to those beliefs/laws. So someone can be orthodox- that is believe that the orthodox laws are the right way to do things- and still be irreligious, and break those laws. But when they do follow laws, they follow the orthodox ones.
On the other hand, if you dont' believe in the laws of orthodoxy, and do follow them, i don't know what that makes you. Religious but not orthodox?
AE, my crude diagram is just that. In response to your questions 1) I have no issue with reconstructionists they simply did not come up in our discussion. For some time now my stance on "Who is a Jew?" has been "Whom ever self-identifies as a Jew". Because of my disbelief in religion I don't really care how people practice/label themselves (for the most part). 2) My coworker and I were using the term Orthodox to refer to people who belong to that segment of society (which is mostly based on beliefs/laws) not as a statement about religiousity.
if you don't believe in the laws of orthodoxy, and do follow them, i don't know what that makes you. Religious but not orthodox?
The term I've seen used on the kefirah blogs is "Orthoprax".
Unfortunately, your diagram is quite outdated. As that new survey -I forgot who did it- non ortho youths are extremely alienated from yiddish keit.
40 years ago MO's and conservatives were ALMOST indistiguishable- cars on shabbat, no mechitza and public schools.
Certainly C's had more in common with MO's than reform.
Over the last 40 years due to bierthrate frumies have grown in numbers and MO's have moved to the right. The vast majority of C's and reform are now seculars who go to their shuls twice a year and bnai mitzvas and are otherwise indistiguishable. There are only a handful of C's that follow halacha and reforms that actually adhere to the reform dogma.
I say this not to disparage , but to lament the demographic changes/losses.
Benjamin, you can practi`ce tikkun olam married to a preety non nagging gentile, as a gentile or as an athiest. Once this is realized you don't need reform or any dues paying org.
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